Up next in 10
This week we chat to the founders of Steamforged Games! Over the years Steamforged have been known for Guild Ball, Dark Souls & Resident Evil boardgames, and so much more. Recently they also acquired Warmachine! We chat to Mat & Rich about their past, present, and future plans for all thing Steamforged Games.
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0:00
hello I'm Jeff and I'm Ross and I'm Patrick and we are joined today by Matt
0:05
and Rich from Steam Forge games I know hello hello thank you for making the journey guys it's really appreciated
0:11
thanks for having us the hottest day of the year yeah small just to make it just that
0:18
little bit perect exactly what IED you have got a fan we do have a fan yeah um
0:23
which you probably won't feel you'll feel the least of being in the middle a little bit yeah yeah they kind of break
0:29
on the way got two radiators do apologize if you want
0:34
juring I'll describe the feeling to you so is your jenney okay uh mine was
0:41
fine yeah um I yeah drove up although um slightly uninterestingly um had to have
0:48
sausage rail did not match up with the Gregs one so they never do they never do
0:53
my youngest child if it will just turn down a sausage roll with a snuck yeah even if we do what we sometimes do is
1:00
put in Greg's bag which we keep oh that's really he's still not you know you can get you can get them Frozen yes
1:07
in your air fryer you can get a Frozen like what you need to do is you need to go to the pub have a few beers
1:14
make sure you're peckish and then go shopping the stuff that you can find in the freezer section is unbelievable honestly these are things you can only
1:20
look we've got no milk we've got no milk but we've got 42 Frozen exactly I remember my Mrs got um
1:27
got hammered one time we went shoing we came back we had one of every fer crispy
1:32
pancake that's that is like drunk shoing that another horse me oh it yeah it was
1:39
Grim it was Grim I mean they're lovely but they're not good for you is that is it bad that I felt a bit
1:45
nostalgic for the HSE meering the hor simpler times edu and
1:54
John feeding their kids eggs absolutely right yeah wow I was cuz just before we
1:59
leave the the sausage roll track controversial opinion I think arguably the vegan sausage roll from Gregs might
2:05
be better I mean I am not your target for this we it's got CU it's got carrot
2:12
in it does it I don't know um but they're seasoned really nicely everyone knows carrot only exists should exist in
2:19
one place cake and
2:25
rabbits in a rabbit and in a cake I love how when you asked that question I came into frame and like everyone just looked
2:31
St Ross will not have an opinion on saus and I haven't got I haven't got a CL um
2:38
so steam Forge games um we should probably get started on that shouldn't we how how did it all begin it's quite a
2:45
while ago now is it 10 years 10 years this is our 10 year anniversary isn't it that we're we're celebrating like crazy
2:52
people um actually we're just working really hard like we always um so rich
2:58
and I uh met playing War Machine actually um which is is probably kind of
3:03
foreshadowing a part of this conversation but um we got to know each other we were quite uh active in the
3:10
tournament scene and um going over to Cardiff and you know up to you know element and places like that and uh we
3:18
just hit it off and and seemed to have a similar outlook on on games and and
3:24
actually we're getting a little bit frustrated at the time being quite active Gamers I was in the video game
3:29
industry at that moment in time and I was getting a little bit frustrated that a lot of the product that was coming out didn't
3:35
seem to have value for money for the end user it seemed to be you know just the same old same old and so we you know
3:43
like a lot of Gamers s go oh well I could do a lot better oh this is terrible and then we like well why don't
3:49
we give it a go you know Kickstarter was in its infancy at the time just starting to come through and like at that time as
3:56
well it was more about like the the indie project you it would be as fleshed out as is Now you kind of had an idea or
4:01
a couple of pictures and and a couple of bits and people would buy into it very much concept level so I think we we'd
4:08
kind of said you know what between us you know Matt's uh backgrounding and producing video games mine in kind of uh
4:15
digital design I was a teacher as well we kind of went you know let's have a go and fast forward two years of long
4:21
nights and 1:00 a.m. finishes and we had a kind of game didn't we yeah yeah I mean originally there I think I had
4:28
about four or five IDE um and we we ended up cherry picking Gil
4:34
as what we thought would be the simplest thing for us to do we didn't want to be we don't want to bite off way more than we could chew we proceeded to bite off
4:41
way more than we could Che um so that was absolute uh yeah we
4:47
learned an awful lot from that you know simple things like uh turns out that if you can allow people backing to pick and
4:54
choose individual models it takes quite a lot of time to do fulfillment
5:00
an absolute nightmare um so yeah so we learned an awful lot of lessons with that um but Gilbo was and and I've often
5:06
sort of described it as uh a wonderful success but it was in that horrible kind
5:12
of spot where it wasn't quite enough for us to go cool we can now give up our day jobs and dedicate ourselves to this but
5:18
it was enough to go this is something serious and something that we absolutely need to you know pursue yeah um so we'll
5:25
kind of caught betwix and between so as Rich kind of says you know we ended up working two jobs for about two or three
5:32
years um yeah brutal just slamming it you know but nothing that other people don't do but it it it it got there in
5:40
the end and we we landed a couple of um big deals uh with distribution in America that really put us onto the um
5:47
onto the map as it were and then during that time uh I bumped into someone rich
5:53
and I were like the British licensing show in in London and I bumped into someone and I have this habit of of
6:00
everyone I meet I'm just assuming that I either know them or they're going to be one of my best mates so I will just talk
6:05
to them like that so I bumped to this guy and I swear to God I'd met him before
6:11
hadn't and I was chatting to him and um he the Japanese guy called shui and uh
6:16
chat to him but but [ __ ] Japanese culture is one of politeness and courtesy so he
6:22
obviously thought well maybe I did meet this kind of crazy big idiot and and so he was being super friendly back I'm
6:27
like oh we definitely know each other so we're kind of like riffing off of each other chatting away and he said oh do
6:32
you think Dark Souls will make a good ball game and I'm like yeah I'm pretty sure we can make a ball game out of Dark Souls um so yeah then then we did that
6:39
Kickstarter and that that was really what catapulted us into into the stratosphere as it were yeah that that
6:45
started the the great great problems right because you know when you get
6:51
40,000 backers on a Kickstarter and you quite a small company you know it's a a lot to do well I play Dark Souls I
6:58
really liked it it's punishing yeah it's a product right
7:04
it's I think if you um talk about transferring a video game to a board
7:10
game SL Skirmish game you've got to have done the closest I've ever seen mainly because the video
7:17
game completely kicked my ass and then the bo game exactly the same thing so well done for Contin thank you very much
7:24
it beautiful Miniatures as it was definitely one of those yeah we we um again we were learning as we go but we
7:31
were you know one of the things that we are is fast Learners and we try not to make the same mistake more than once or
7:37
twice so well um if I compliment you um because I didn't as much as I enjoyed
7:43
the game I didn't know your company particularly right um it felt like a game where your pedigree was 20 years
7:50
baked when I that's great if you you you know I wouldn't have known you were a relatively for
7:57
time then I thought it was it's it's sometimes it's a source of frustration because I feel like over the years we've
8:02
been compared with companies that are way way bigger than us you it's like well seeon do this and you're like
8:08
they're like 50 times bigger than us you know have you seen the credit list they've got like 100 people and working
8:14
on every game so but it's it's nice to be compared although sometimes it feels
8:19
like can you yeah um but now as we've grown and and we've we've got better at what we do and we've learned a heck a
8:26
lot of hard lessons as as Rich was saying dog sells 40,000 backers like you
8:31
only have to screw up by $10 and that is like a heinous amount of money that you know you've got to accommodate somehow
8:37
and yeah in amongst there we had um brexit screwed us over we Lo yeah I've heard that that was pretty we lost about
8:43
800 Grand overnight yeah literally from the exch 800 Grand overnight and pretty
8:49
much wiped the profit out from the project was the profit and the continuous and a whole bunch of other stuff so yeah that that put us beond the
8:56
a so not being very good um a lot of
9:01
things um yes 800 Grand is a lot of
9:06
money maybe not to you Pat 800,000 Greg sausage
9:14
rolls a lot that is a lot that's at least six months and that was purely
9:19
currency change right that was yeah that was going to be my question yeah so so we we kickstarted um uh received the
9:26
funds in in in pounds yeah um our debt associated with it I with the manufacturers and everything is all in
9:32
dollars yeah and then brexit happened and 20% got wiped off the it happened
9:38
while the money was transferring from the account to us basically in that in the 14-day period as well so it was the
9:43
worst time it could have happen yeah three or four days either side and we would have been all right but there you go but look on the price side we've
9:49
learned about hedging and Mak sure we have decent effect accounts now so yeah
9:55
I mean it's it's a good you know it is a good piece CU you know we we've absolutely made mistakes you know on
10:00
this journey we absolutely made things right right we and we've learned like Matt said it really gritted us to how to
10:06
bring a product to Market you know and in a very public way which usually then things happen behind scenes with
10:11
kickstar that doesn't you know it's it's very up in the front but we've always delivered on what was said you know we
10:16
you know we've always delivered every Dart Soul product we' made every backer got every piece of that and and we've Ed
10:23
that as a foundation didn't we for our philosophy around what we do and and definitely helped us kind of grow and
10:29
and experience I think by experiencing that hardship and and some of those areas you know and also respecting our
10:34
license holder like B Amco who you know we never wanted to put them in any position where their brand would be hurt
10:41
so and we did a very good job of of respecting that and then delivering on that how hard was it to create
10:48
something that's somebody else's Vision in what way well because obviously Dark
10:54
Souls demon souls it's it's been an an existent thing for a while it's uh um
10:59
loved by a lot of people um you know a lot of people sort of sit on the edge of
11:04
their seat waiting for the next one of them to come out and also design and Aesthetics wise because as much as I've
11:12
I've only dabbled in that but I was a big bloodborne player and they have a very unique design the the the creature
11:19
design and and so on is quite unusual and even the way the game plays to some degree this thing of you play through
11:24
one way it opens doors for you need to come back on yourself and so on how hard's is it to translate and to agree
11:32
on with somebody to get something so we've got um we've got a fairly tried
11:37
and tested creative process for working with licensed partners and I've often
11:43
talked about um things like getting into the DNA of the game um but I've kind of
11:48
evolved that and and the best way I can describe it is think of any property
11:53
like a video game or a TV show or a movie why do you love it and it's generally because of the emotional
11:59
response that that product causes in you like I've read I've read novels where I've at the end I've cried you know
12:06
literally phys like grown ass man gr are you all swear end of okay cool yeah and
12:12
your tears are streaming down your face as a character diesing like just words on a page so it's I'm emotionally engaged in it so why am I emotionally
12:19
engaged what is it actually doing that's creating that emotional attachment and then when you you know a video game is
12:24
is actually slightly easier because the reasons why you're getting engaged in it more tangible they're easier to kind of
12:30
hook on to it's the visuals it's the you know it's the voice actors it's the you know it's the story it's the challenge
12:35
of the gameplay Dark Souls is all about that you know um reward for people tenacity and learning and and and
12:42
understanding and constantly pushing forwards and and taking sort of setbacks in their stride so once you kind of get
12:48
that it's then looking at the medium that you're working in so we happen to work in in carboard and plastic video
12:54
games work in you know pixels and triangles right and and and you know videographers work in lighting and and
13:01
and acting and everything so it's use it's looking at the medium that you work with and trying to generate the same
13:07
emotional response so the example that I always latch on to is is is the Resident Evil game and one of the things that's
13:15
commonly accepted about Resident Evil is that that sense of constant pressure constant resource scarcity um and and
13:23
and you feeling that anything could happen at any point in time so that's what gives you that kind of survival horror Resident Evil sort of feel now if
13:30
you talk to someone like sharing you know lead designer on it he's able to kind of play through Resident Evil and
13:36
have a thousand bullets left over and cuz cuz once you you know you uncover it all you know where everything is and you
13:42
know what you do need to shoot what what you don't need to shoot but for for that game we wanted to create that sense that
13:47
you had to count your bullets you had to be careful of what your ammo was you could only carry so much ammo you know
13:53
reloading your gun actually is takes a heavy hit in the action economy it creates all those tiny little
13:59
microabrasions where you're feeling a lot of pressure from the game and then it makes people go it feels just like
14:05
Resident Evil because you've got the visuals are there as well it says Resident Evil on the box so you already got your brain in the right in the right
14:11
kind of frame and now you're getting all these things where oh it makes me feel like I'm playing Resident Evil oh this
14:16
is you know this is cool so that's what we try and do is is if we can if we can
14:21
make ourselves feel like it feels like this game then we know we're into the into the right track rather than trying
14:28
to I think the easiest is to create a fact simile you look at like some of the core systems in a video game and and you
14:33
try and just emulate them you know take Halo for example you know why would you try and do an active reload or sorry
14:40
Gears of War why would you try and do an active reload as a natural mechanic it just wouldn't work you know but what is
14:45
it they're trying to actually do they're trying to reward you for making a good decision about when to reload and when not to reload so that's the bit not the
14:52
actual thing that you do yeah I mean I I think we I mentioned this recently I can't remember what we were chatting
14:58
about but about active reloading Gears of War and I do it just so you hear Marcus Phoenix go yo
15:05
yeah and uh and that suits me Das to the ground uh we we put out on patreon that
15:10
that you guys were coming and and if people had sort of like questions and bits and Bs and someone said here's one of them where's my Dark
15:16
Souls um no what where he says not a question just to thank you for making the Resident Evil 2 board game very nice
15:23
now we yeah we've got team of awesome sculptors designers developers on that that's that was a labor of love there's
15:29
there's a couple of real super fans working on that oh that sounds great and I think it is good like you know like
15:34
you said you know you're kind of because of the caliber of your portfolio which
15:40
is huge like I I first came across you a couple of years ago at UK games Expo uh
15:46
we had a quick chat um it was because of the Resident Evil 2 board game but to say you're a 10-year-old
15:52
company I imagine you've both got the oh my god wow like the amount of things we've got cuz it was it was Guild ball
15:58
then to your Dark Souls then more and more video game tie-in Partners those licenses but because of the size of that
16:06
and how that's perceived you probably also like you say tarnish with that same brush of how can you not possibly be as
16:14
a a a you know who did you say is the example like a workshop and Asma thing
16:19
like that and it is a case of no these guys have got a lot out but that you're not this huge company you're here
16:26
talking to us like normal human beings which is fantastic well anyone can act for
16:31
about we managed to do it three once a week I think um you know working with
16:36
these licensed Partners you know it's we're very humbled and respectful and lucky you know to to get these
16:43
relationships I'm arrogant as [ __ ]
16:50
cut well we've you know we've I think it really has helped us you know kind of
16:55
we've always got to be that that respectful to those licenses and I think we it constantly pushed us you know to
17:01
make try and make the best product for for those IPS and really kind of you
17:06
know push the envelope and what we can do and continually develop and I think that's what we you know we have done and
17:12
we've seen that from our fans from the early days and fans now is that people have seen the progression of steam for
17:17
like you say you know although we're a 10 year old you know company we're still babies in the industry right yeah I mean
17:23
if you if you're working on a licensed game and this is this is true for our own IP as much as it is for a licensed
17:28
game but but when you're talking with potential Partners to kind of take on one of their their brands you have to
17:35
recognize that in some small way your duty is to enhance fans of that IP's
17:41
experience yeah it's not to just go deeper on it it's to is to give you give them a different way of playing or a new
17:48
way of interacting with the world or a new way of discovering things about it so as long as you look at what you do as
17:54
some way of as a value enhancement it it frames you in the right in the right way
17:59
and I think it's very easy to you know we've often said that we will never white box by that you know we won't have
18:05
a standard game engine that will just slap take Monopoly right monopoly's got standard game engine just slap whatever
18:10
rapper on it you wanton make a bucket load of money you know we we played the Warhammer one
18:16
recently and that is just that exactly that yeah they didn't even change like
18:22
the houses and hotels no no oh really no no come on honestly they're not little B
18:29
or hi cities they are blue green and red amazing um I didn't know that and
18:36
apparently as a Space Marine you can still go to jail I'm just going to sh as a space Mar
18:43
I'm going to shake my head dismay at that honestly CU there there is um a stranger things Monopoly that has like
18:49
instead of the hotels you have little tapes and that has some different and things like
18:55
that one is war hammer was quite an early one though wasn't it in its defense I think of of I think their of
19:01
their before that there was mean London and la like that Monopoly is is like it's
19:07
really formulized now so if you want if you had an IP that you wanted to put on you would you would literally apply to
19:13
them they'll send you a form it'll tell you fill in this form and it'll literally what is Park Lane called what
19:18
is you know Mayfair called and they'll be like you know um rewrite all of these things upload these assets to this
19:24
standard press a button and it kind of goes and that's it you know W there's very little human to human interaction
19:30
with it it's kind of depressing isn't it don't buy Monopoly kids let me tell you about the interesting story about Monopoly did you know this the guy who
19:35
invented it it's quite a sad story actually I I'm familiar I think yeah it was uh he wanted to demonstrate how bad
19:42
capitalism is and the fact that his ultimately a race to the bottom in capitalism so he wanted a game that that
19:48
emulated capitalism and made everyone miserable so he did that but he ended up being one of the most successful getting
19:54
we still makes you miserable when you play to some degree but um I remember um
20:00
a friend of mine talking about a a friend of mine's a big board gamer and he was talking about a guy who's um who
20:07
gives uh people the green light on their own little board game and they send him
20:13
their their idea and all the rest of it yeah and he said in the cover and letter if it says this could be the next
20:19
Monopoly he just immediately puts it straight in the bin and that's it yeah he just yeah because if you think you're
20:25
yeah comparing yourself to Monopoly not is I I my um my girlfriend bought a book
20:35
from it was a German chaper games Expo not this year but the year previous and I think he reviews all the best games of
20:41
the year and all that sort of stuff and people send their games to him to test out and if if the cover letter says this
20:48
could be the new Monopoly he throws it in the bin yeah yeah yeah um so what do you guys think could
20:55
be the new Monopoly I've got with you having now been in the
21:01
licensing of video game to board game if I put it that in a lazy way um how um
21:11
how much of your reputation M does the work for you uh a lot yeah yeah yeah a lot so there's there's two aspects to
21:17
that one is um an unfairness of of the world is Success beget success so that
21:23
you know dark souls put us onto the map not just with you know people who play games and Distributors and retailers
21:28
everything like that but also for licensed Partners they suddenly woke up to the fact oh K there's an awful lot of
21:34
money that could be made we have a lot of Ip why don't we just pile it into board games we W the first to actually
21:39
bring a video game to a board game so yeah we actually it was kind of pioneering on that side as well what I
21:46
don't know if we were the first one of the first yeah that's a little bit Sun headlining one of one of our thumbnail I
21:53
think we did it I think we I think I think what you if I may expand on that we were one of the ones that brought it
21:59
in a way that then generated a huge number that's fair I think that's that's you know there were previous kind of
22:05
video game adaptations that had done similar things like AP actually yeah
22:10
back in the day like feel like since and and maybe this is just my Optics but since Dark Souls it has expanded greatly
22:19
faster we're seeing definitely a car piece yeah I think I think what it was like was like it's back in the Gold Rush days where there's a few there's always
22:25
Prospectors up in the mountains tinking away and grabbing little bits of gold and I think we came along and accidentally found like this massive
22:31
chunk of go everyone went to the hills boys you know it's a good way of expl
22:36
three four four years Dark Souls no longer than that in there we don't count
22:45
that yeah but so an natural fact I'm still in me 40s that's good to so the
22:51
the other thing that so so not only having successful products brings brings you know better uh opportunities but
22:58
also so uh act behaving in the right way and as Rich was saying earlier we work
23:03
closely with our distribut Sor with our licensed Partners we try and create long-term relationships with them we
23:09
want them to look at us as a safe reliable portal call First portal call for any new license they have and we
23:15
have great relationships with you know Sony and Microsoft and Capcom and Bandai
23:21
and and people like that and and they their relationships that we've cultivated and worked very hard over
23:26
over the last 10 years to to develop so we do get early you know phone calls
23:32
like one of the most exciting ones was a Secret Squirrel meeting about 5 years ago yeah uh to go to London and got
23:39
shown like the Elden Ring trailer and and told about Elden ring and sworn to secrecy and we had to cut our hands and
23:45
drift on so but yeah like finding out about that stuff is was unbelievable um but it
23:52
just shows how much faith that they have in us they wanted us involved as early
23:58
as possible possible to work with you know the teams as closely as possible develop the game the one that's on my
24:03
wish list which I'm really pleased that you did cuz it's such a I think it's just such a a wonderful Universe was
24:09
going in and doing horiz Horizon oh yeah I've been a big F I've been a big fan of
24:14
both games and the fact that you do that and I do which one do you like most the first one or the second one most spoilers I haven't finished the second
24:20
one I've had this conversation just had this conversation want you want to say the first one you feel like you should
24:26
say the second one second one's a i i i really clever deeper game yeah but I always like I was saying before talking
24:32
about which of Deadpool movies do you prefer um I always seen characters are their most interesting the first 1 32 on
24:38
that by the way 132 yeah all right okay 213 oh I think I'm 132 you know on the I
24:45
think I may Deadpool deadp 312 312 yeah
24:51
I think I think I'm W 32 I think okay yeah but um I'm not see3 yet but don't I
24:57
think characters always been most interesting the first time you meet them agreed and I think you know when with with um Alo second one called Horizon
25:06
some forbidden W you already know that there's there's robots that look like
25:12
animal and you already know she's greater climbing and jumping off cliffs and can you missing that Jurassic Park when you first see the dinosaur thing
25:18
you already seen the dinosaur I was saying I was saying this like you know um Lethal Weapon where the first time
25:24
you meet Martin rigs he's suicidal he's a brilliant sniper he's ex martial arts he's yeah and then every movie Just
25:30
Dil yeah so um but I think the thing when that came out I was
25:35
really surprised because if I'm being Ely honest I just didn't think it was something that could be a board game but
25:41
the reviews I've read of it it's it's really well but it comes back to like what is that core DNA what is that
25:48
emotional experience that we're trying to recreate and you know with a with a property like Horizon um quite correctly
25:55
gorilla and Sony um are very aware of how they want their Cannon to be
26:00
presented how they want their game to be presented and what what you can and can't do with that so some designers
26:06
might see that as as you know overly strict limitations but actually it just helps you eliminate options until you
26:12
end up going well if we can't do that we can't do this we can't do that well we kind of left with this what can we do in
26:17
this space cool this is this is kind of fun have any of the video game creatives been resistant to you do they feel like
26:25
that you're you're taking their baby and and mold in fact it's the other way around so you know as I think we
26:32
mentioned earlier I spent 20 20 years making video games so I'm quite aware of of the trials and tribulations and so
26:40
part of our responsibility is is not letting the studio get too carried away because at the end of the day the
26:46
revenue they're going to generate from us doing a license deal with them is not in the same league as the actual main
26:52
video games so you know if you've got a team of uh artists and designers who passionately love board games and want
26:58
to get involved part of our job is actually to to somehow keep them know you need to do your day jobs yeah
27:04
exactly so um so yeah it's it's almost always they want to be more and more
27:09
involved and you need to help them manage their time and manage their input and did your heart be very slightly
27:16
quicker when you heard about the Netflix thing uh just a little bit I'm looking forward to it yeah Netflix are going to
27:23
make Horizon into show that's very interesting I've got to admit like you like I've been sat here
27:30
with this Horizon chat Horizon to me is one of the games that I'm just like the
27:35
N like the something about the Jer position of the natural and the man-made
27:40
smashed so directly together that makes me love that and the first game was like not only do you meet aloy and the
27:46
character and all that but it's the introduction of the world how did this all happen the slow reveal you know got
27:52
Absolut oh I've got gooseb I got a real Horizon feel the other day when I watched um the other day watched Kingdom
27:58
of the planet the Apes and all all the skyscrapers were all covered in in in plants and stuff and I we've got a real
28:05
slight Horizon feel of I was the producer for um a game for band Namco
28:11
actually called enslaved which fantastic Journey to the West Journey to the West oh that was great so
28:18
it it kind of it it had that same s Vibe but what one of the things we tried to do and I remember tamin was the creative
28:24
director on that and chatting to him and I think this is something that the horizon and brought an you know an
28:29
insane amount of freshness to was it is a big AAA game now they use a proprietary engine but at that time
28:36
there was an awful lot of unreal games and I don't know if you heard the concept unreal Brown yeah yes yes right
28:41
so it's it's it's essentially every unreal game feels quite similar and it kind of sort of merges into Browns and
28:47
Grays just because of the way people typically use it and suddenly you've got Horizon coming out true AAA game massive
28:54
budget crystal clear blue bright blue skies you know verdant green you know
28:59
vegetation everywhere and these massive robots you're like oh this feels different feels fresh was that an Unreal Engine game it wasn't no Preparatory
29:06
engine but at the time there's a lot of unreal stuff coming out and if you SED and looked at it and you like yeah you
29:12
can see I tell it was quite funny wasn't it the Horizon came out and then um and
29:18
then suddenly uh Games Workshop Beast snagger armor suddenly had a slightly different
29:23
look the white armor with the red little uh triangles things see thing yeah
29:28
absolutely right but it was a good steal though it really it looked really good against the vi filter was a good Less on
29:35
the nose than Terminators for example Predators so jumping if I can sort of
29:40
jump back so obviously you know oh wait no I'm in I'm in the lead belt I bet what I won't be allowed out I so
29:49
now the wi video game stuff now um and you've got a lot of ips in that area so
29:54
obviously you started with Guild ball so this is the a bit where and people have probably been asking this and scratching
30:00
their head so for the sake of the audience and me a bit what what is Guild ball if you can just sort of like
30:07
elevator pitch right pitch so the elevator pitches it's medieval soccer
30:12
with axes right okay so it's it's what what happens if um if you know there's
30:18
an eternal war and conflict and they realize that they can actually solve it through sporting Endeavor but of course
30:25
human beings being human beings cheat so so there's this war between the various
30:30
Mercantile guilds and they realize that it's is again observational capitalism
30:35
it's a race to the bottom and if they're tearing strips out of each other ultimately they're all going to lose so
30:41
they all get together and go well what if we settle our differences in public which we can monetize and get people to
30:46
come and watch the games and they can cheer for their Heroes and we can sell them merch and we can also you know fix
30:52
games and do whatever stuff we need to do that's that was the whole kind of premise so at the time of coming up with
30:59
the world is was a reflection on the corruptness in corruption in FIFA and newfa and places like that SE black was
31:05
at the time alleged corruption in the alleged both kind of gate crashing and chucking fake pound notes at him and
31:11
stuff like that so it was it was quite a corrupt time for football there's a little bit to see the did that mon yeah
31:19
um so so it's what what does that then look like if teams are sponsored by
31:24
these different mertile guilds and what happens in if you're playing football and you you're basically hitting each
31:30
other with axes and swords and stuff like that so yeah so I heard it was really really really well received it
31:36
has like a great Community behind it um when I've spoken to people and said oh
31:41
we're having SE on they're like ask something about Gil ball um that seems to be the thing huge following yeah I
31:47
think it took us it took us by surprise like how popular it was we did a kickart
31:52
originally you know so you know we made about 80 90,000 as Matt said earlier and it was
31:58
enough to kind of do something not enough to quit the day jobs we we cracked on to get to I think the important B was there was about three or
32:04
4,000 backers which was enough to kind of tip you over the edge just enough yeah and then we went to salute um and
32:12
kind of we delivered the kickstarter it's like a week a couple of weeks after we were going our first retail to SLO we
32:17
were literally up till like you know 3:00 a.m. putting little metal models in boxes and we had no idea what would
32:23
happen at salute but we we had this small like a 2b2 like booth and um we we're studing it the we're about to open
32:30
the the payment system goes down like well it'll be fine you know whatever um and then the doors open to slute and
32:37
we've never seen anything like it this this horde of people they run into the booth we were we were mobbed in we
32:43
couldn't move I felt sorry for the like the booths around us so sorry CU people were just queuing through their Booth to
32:49
get onto our booth we had said like little 10 by 10 that way into like Market Trader mode you were like
32:55
grabbing money and just making deals and putting your pocket amazing it was money fting around the back yeah exactly and we just giveing an
33:02
orange CR I mean I'm really sorry our crowd's blocking your booth but have you got any
33:07
FES so we so yeah we we were like that all day till about 4:30 you half an hour
33:14
for sh it was absolutely mental so I think at one point we we'd come off managed to get out the stand and we just
33:20
said we might have something here like some there's definitely some interest they probably the first moment we felt it's a great Buzz though isn't it yeah
33:26
it was cool we had it this year Chicago when we were working for Su it was
33:32
bananas exhilarating now I think it's easy to get then get locked you you
33:38
almost kind of get locked in and and you know that you're on a rocket ship to Mars but you can't quite enjoy the
33:44
journey cuz it's going so fast and so like like tears are streaming out your faces like Distributors are phoning up
33:50
they want big deals suddenly you know great you get you know a 50 Grand order coming you go whoa oh crap we got to
33:57
make this right stop making it all like you know so it's just constantly you know um one problem turns into a
34:03
solution turns into another problem and you just I think it was about three or four years before we just managed to
34:09
find our feet and work out where were we were you know we we ended up in a place that we didn't imagine at the start
34:15
which is we we' made a you know a small to mediumsized business and you know we we had to turn into that company and we
34:21
you know we'd never experienced that will before so we were learning to become a company and what that entails
34:27
you know me and mat split our you know we're very much doing things together we still do a lot but we have to split our kind of responsibilities and you know
34:33
I'm trusted Matt with the cretive society trust me with the business side and had to grow into them and and I
34:38
think you know over the last kind of 10 years that's what we we did we we kind of grew into that and I think you know
34:43
me it's honest to say that I think some areas of Guild ball did suffer while we were doing that because we've got this
34:49
huge license project we got Guild ball Co then hits so you know there's a lot of decision points we had to make during
34:55
this time that you know you could if we re out time you know time we would change but I guess that's the nature of
35:01
business you know that you know things happen like that and and and you know we ended a place with Guild ball where we
35:06
we had to kind of set the the sun on it the de to development on it in you know around covid time which you know we
35:13
didn't do the best messaging you we could be honest about that we've talked about that on our own channel in some videos um and you know we explained that
35:21
at the time but it's nice now to be on the other side of that you know where we are now you know last year we we brought
35:27
Gil ball back you know it's now available again and bringing it back to the audience cuz like you say there's a
35:33
huge Community around it and you know the the Gil ball uh Community project was was spun up while we weren't out to
35:39
developing it they kept it alive and kept it growing and we've been working with them now yeah work with him um
35:44
probably speak to him a couple of times a month um about you know various fits and pieces like the health of the game
35:49
we talk about sort balancing passes we talk about you know new teams and stuff like that so you know slowly but surely
35:57
as rich said we we fumbled the message right and we just got it absolutely wrong um and and
36:03
that sucked cuz one of the hardest things is to then dig yourself out of a hole once you
36:08
realize you you've put yourself into it and it's really hard so we tend to settle on the get your head down we just
36:16
work our way through things we don't try and explain our way through things and and we we try and be judged on the
36:21
results rather than what we say we're going to do we rather just get on and do it and save save our breath but Gil ball
36:27
was obviously you know at a point where Co had come along various other things had happened it it had to kind of go
36:34
into the freezer for a little while um and Our intention was it was only going to go in friezer for a little while but
36:39
then when when we lost control of the message and the retoric kind of built out that we've killed it it's was like
36:45
oh God how do we turn this ship around so we just had to wait literally had to wait until you know the anger and and
36:52
the and the upset and the frustration and and the annoyance at us had subsided enough so we could then saying well what
36:58
do you guys feel about this what if we did this what if we did the other and and so it was slowly slowly but surely
37:03
but I think one of the things that kept us going during that process was
37:09
reminding ourselves that however nasty it got at times and it was a reflection
37:14
of how upset and how angry people were it goes back to that emotional response they were emotionally attached to that
37:20
game yeah they wouldn't have been that angry if they hadn't have liked the game as much as they
37:25
did so you know whether that's true for everyone or not I don't know but but it's certainly something that we talked
37:31
about a lot internally to sort of say no look it does suck and no one likes you know half of the stuff that gets said
37:36
about you on the internet let know the other half and you're like well let's just focus on what's important you know
37:42
we need to during Co for for us to survive as a business and and ideally grow because it was a real opportunity
37:48
space for for like Leisure industry so for for people making board games you know US Government kindly gave out
37:55
$1,500 worth of board game vouches to everyone and you know they went out and spent them I mean it was yeah they gave
38:01
was actually for board games it was like food and stuff but it was dollars wasn't
38:07
it yeah stimulus package yeah P I don't know how but it's amazing we ran we did ran a kickstar like accidentally
38:13
brilliant um but we ran a Kickstarter around the time that that stimulus check land went Bonkers about a virus going
38:21
around the world as well what was that one resent evil oh of
38:26
course yeah yeah um but yeah I mean you right though that's got to be quite I don't know the
38:33
word cuz I'm too tired still from jet lag but um it's got to be really like heartfelt and amazing to know that
38:39
something you created has such a passionate community that even in the time that you've not been able to spend
38:45
on it your community has kept it going um which which is just great and shows
38:51
how much passion there is there for a product that you guys created and yeah I mean we we we love guil ball like we
38:57
always have love Guild ball and to see that others have got so invested over time into it as well is brilliant and
39:03
the fact that we've now be able to address it bring it back you know and the company itself you know we've gone
39:09
through 10 years now transition and you know in 2019 we we got external investment you know as a a minor partner
39:15
from private equity which helped us build the infrastructure inside so you know over the last kind of four or five
39:20
years we've really grown to be able to handle the the you know what we've got
39:26
these license board games and you know things like bringing Beil world back and obviously now war machine so it's it's
39:31
you know it's been building that infrastructure of a business was equally as big a challenge as managing all the
39:38
projects coming in yeah can I ask um an how in the very early days of Gil ball
39:45
how hard was it to and I and I I sound like I'm being ignorant but I know the difference but I'm going to ask the
39:50
question how hard was it to go when it's not blood ball we're not just copying blood ball was that was that tough at
39:57
the beginning because because people do have a habit of when they describe comp they just describe the nearest thing
40:03
don't you go watch it you know blood B but how hard was it to fight that uh to make it go this is worth playing even if
40:10
you've already got blood bow on the Shelf yeah no it it was pretty tricky I think um cuz you know one of the
40:15
original uh concepts for for Gilbo was uh we were playing a bloodbowl league on
40:22
the PC and then we went to the Welsh oen to play War Machine and we're just sitting there and I you know between
40:28
rounds and I was just looking at the table going wouldn't it be cool if we could play Blood bow on this table and that was you know that was the very
40:35
first idea for for guil ball was like oh Fantasy Football on and then I remembered um like main streaks from
40:41
like 200000 ad back in the day which is a really tiny little strip that they did and I always love that as well with like
40:47
the themes of the different um teams and everything so it kind of snowball from there but I think it's one of those
40:53
being associated with a game like blood like blood ball you know that still can attract 400 500 people to you know to an
41:00
event great see I asked cuz um my um a friend of mine is Jake thoron and he
41:06
wrote dread ball for right for Mantic and it was that thing of how do you how do you try and not just have people go
41:13
well I already own that well yeah again when we launched guildball uh dreadball was also doing a Kickstart around the
41:18
time and we had a couple of conversations and um and I and my my view was now let's put it out at the
41:25
same time yeah but we're in competition with Dread I know but everyone else will see that and they'll write loads of
41:31
articles about us and and Dread ball we're just going to get so much free marke it happen as well like you know
41:38
that comparison imagine didn't it for both of us yeah we we we you know we were no bodies at that time you know we
41:44
had a very Sho string budget to bring this to Market you know I think we it was between the 2,000 each we we brought
41:50
in I lent mine off my dad for for his pension like and and that was it that's all we had to do the whole project you
41:57
know yeah we calling in favors whatever we could yeah yeah but yeah so you know
42:03
to to be able to leverage you know influences talking about dread ball and Guild ball was was great for us yeah so
42:10
the the path of um gild ball from sort of my limited research that I feel like
42:16
I've done a little bit um so you started off with like your metal Miniatures yes um you see it's sort of come back now is
42:23
that with like the print on demand yeah so print on demand uh we we've got for the moment we brought back in uh so it's
42:30
the entire range uh near the latter part before we kind of uh paused it we had
42:35
done a lot of resin development uh so we were doing the teams in resin we were bringing them all back through that so the sculps had all had kind of updates
42:42
and tweaks and that so we we managed to Port those digital schools quite nicely into to the the print and demand system
42:48
so they're all available now yeah all the sculps have been updated as well were they all were they
42:55
were they hand sculpt when you did the metal always digital you got Masters
43:01
were you doing the casting or did you have someone do no I partner yeah one of our man doing the so they did the
43:06
casting then then there was the resin then now no so now we had a so we we did
43:12
make a a with the benefit of highight a bad mistake so um we started off in
43:18
metal uh we dabbled a bit in resin for you know because at that time if you a high-end painter or you were just a
43:25
someone who had more money than sense you would would buy like the resin minis rather than the metal minis cuz they
43:30
were slightly better than than the metal minis little bit sharper little bit sharper was the was the you know that's
43:35
the marketing spin once you sprayed them up they they're pretty much the same but we were we we were at the point where
43:42
we're on this rocket ship and you know it felt like the community was like big enough and we we were like this is
43:47
amazing and we started working uh closely with Chinese factories on PVC and we're like wouldn't it be great if
43:54
you could buy a Gil ball team already made up in a box just one one stop off you go and we can get the price point
44:01
down because like the cost of goods is lower etc etc so so we we started doing that what we learn is one if you half
44:09
the price of of your units and you don't double your sales you actually have you've shifted the scales in the wrong
44:15
way in terms of revenue and profit so we're making more profit but less Revenue which is as businessmen you know
44:22
is a bit of a problem so that that's problem number one wasn't insurmountable we just needed to work out how we could
44:28
how we could sell more the bit that we that we absolutely didn't get right was
44:33
the lifeblood of any minis game is the supply chain and and no one is immune to this like we all know the Games Workshop
44:39
have been enjoying some supply chain issues for the last what 18 months or more and it's horrendous it's horrendous
44:46
and if there's anything going to turn your head away from a game faster it's not being able to buy the toys yeah
44:52
right so you go oh well I can't buy yours so oh there's a game over there I'm going to try that oh they've got some many I can buy into those so when
44:59
you're we're working on suddenly we went from working on a 3mon lead time for a metal team up to a 15mon lead time
45:06
working on a PVC team oh wow and that Logistics jump was was um like a cup of
45:11
cold water just smashed in your face oh okay Cy and then then there was a couple of incidents where comically the
45:18
Navigator Guild managed to get lost on a ship yeah it's like you
45:23
caned so the Navigator literally yeah yeah so so yeah that that that waiting
45:32
over a year to get them Absolut shocker and then the other thing as well is is
45:37
is with a minis game because you want relatively regular releases you know if it comes goes back
45:43
to cash flow and I'm sorry if it's slightly boring the busy side of it but let's say each shipment is is 150 Grand
45:50
right so once you've kind of PID for the molding and and the manufacturing the shipping 150 Grand well if you've got
45:57
four releases a year and you've got a 15mon cycle that's five releases you're tying up 750 bags like at any point in
46:04
time that's taking out your cash flow it's just gone so that kind of as a business locks locks you up so now
46:10
you're into a whole different kind of sort of Paradigm so we kind of learned
46:15
those lessons the hard way and and as we're working through we then started working with um on you know ramping up
46:21
the resin to try and get that supply chain back in play um we went through a few teing problems with the resin
46:28
suppliers that we work with unforunately they do the volume there's a volume issue around that and you know like M
46:34
said with the release schedule where we were doing kind of like release a blister or back in the day Miniatures
46:39
you know was all blister packs in the shells right um we thought the skew Creek was starting to come in so you
46:45
know we had to beware of that the PVC was kind of the answer but wasn't like Matt said um so coming back into the
46:52
resum we were able to go back to starting doing single releases of Captain and stuff like that which helped but at that time we were just preco and
46:59
it was you know everything was starting to change and yeah they' all just landed at a bad spot and I think the message
47:05
that we fum we we hard fumbled it but the message that we were trying to communicate was that you know people are
47:11
are leaving the game more faster than they're joining the game and that and that's the problem right that that
47:16
ultimately is is the game's going to die unless we can do something about it and we can't do anything about it we we
47:22
tried a few things and and it just felt like that it wasn't their
47:28
very much that was the difference like it was our fault right we we custodians the game we're managing the game and
47:33
delivering to the people so and that that's where we messed up on yeah so so I imagine there'll be there'll be
47:39
somebody watching this going tell me about the future of Guild um love how
47:45
thunder started R dramatic have to put that back and by
47:51
any means I don't want to put you on the spot like if there's nothing like you put if there's anything you do feel comfortable that you can talk about the
47:57
future of Guild ball yeah so um there's definitely a couple of uh unfinished
48:03
aspects to Guild ball so they uh you have the main teams and you have the minor teams um so there's still a number
48:08
of minor teams that have have been yet to be completed so uh we're looking at
48:14
those quite determined to get those out um and then at the very least at least morally and OCD wise we can say right at
48:21
least it's complete now so that's that's something that we want to look at over the next couple of years and then it's
48:28
it's very much a um see how it goes you know we don't want to push it too hard
48:35
cuz I feel like there's an awful lot of trust being shown to us um but it feels like it's being lent To Us by by the
48:41
community they want to see us you know be able to do something with us we we treasure that and we don't want to run
48:48
the risk of running too fast too hard and then tripping over because I think if we do yeah that'll be it that'll be
48:53
it forever so and and we don't want that to happen so slowly but surely we'll just keep making sure that the models
48:59
are available for people to play we'll make sure that the the rules kind of you know get get a routine balance and and
49:05
The Meta get you know has an eye kept on it and if we can roll out a new team every now and then then that will keep
49:11
people excited hopefully and yeah if you if we start to see it flourish and grow then we'll obviously pump whatever
49:16
effort we can in to help that um and then if it does reach a certain point well then we can then start attaching
49:22
you know internal development resources to it and really start kind of pushing the the pace up so yeah fantastic yeah
49:28
amazing there we go a good natural thing so you've got your so obviously there was Guild ball then you went on to like
49:34
your license stuff which I'm just going to assume there are more cogs turning in that very so not but I'm not going to
49:41
put you on I'm definitely not put you on the spot cuz I assume there's nothing you could say but you also you've had the DND side of things which we've not
49:49
touched on at all Haven we with epic encounters that's a whole piece we're quite an unusual company because you
49:55
know a lot of companies have kind of one one aspect and they do really well with that we've actually got several successful projects in multiple areas
50:02
and Matt again you know I've love working M these years because his idea generation he seems to find niches that
50:09
that everyone looks at it afterwards and go why didn't we think of that and epic encounters range was was absolutely that
50:15
one no one's done it since and you you talk about it well yeah funny story we're in Richard's office and uh we're
50:21
working on Monster Hunter but around that time Richard just had his cthulu may die pledge delivered and it had that
50:27
hoofing great cthulu model and we're all like oh isn't it is cool he like a
50:32
really cool model and rich is like oh we're doing Monster like let's look let's start looking at like what what the biggest monsters that we can do and
50:39
and like everyone's kind of crowding around and and sort of chatting about this and and I was like just daydreaming
50:45
and I just sort of laid back and I saw a um uh a model it was a dragon model from Joan of Ark just up on one of the
50:52
shelves and I was like they're talking about massive dragons I like I'll tell you what I really want is a massive red
50:59
dragon right what I want a [ __ ] enormous red dragon that like wiiz of the coast I've never seen anything this
51:05
big let's what's the biggest red dragon we can do in PBC so so that sort of started that kind of conversation and
51:12
then then that idea came about from my laziness which is I hate going into a
51:18
into a store let's say I'm running a game for and I need some Cobalts I don't want to flick through a million blisters
51:23
looking for a Cobalt Spearman and a Cobalt Archer and a Cobalt like riding a whatever yeah I kind of I'm lazy I just
51:31
want to go to a drive-thru window go one order of Cobalts please thank you very much and put it in my bag and then I'm
51:36
off so that epic encounters solved that problem which was can I One-Stop shop
51:43
buy an entire coherent high quality range of of Minis that delivers a
51:49
specific kind of you know experience yeah um and then we just layered into that how can we then add value to what
51:56
is a box of Minis and that's where we started to layer in the the expertise
52:02
and the experience that we had at steam Forge in terms of you know I've been playing D and D since I was like 10 so
52:07
so like 40 odd years now so um and and we've got similar other people we've got
52:13
decades if not centuries of experience well how do you pump that in and and help people who were getting into D and
52:19
D because at the time it was the it was the meteoric rise of critical role so more and more people were playing D andd
52:25
stranger things talked about that earlier everyone was suddenly D andd aware and wanted to get into it and and
52:30
I was meeting so many people who would I was chatting to them and they were going oh and they're telling me about their
52:36
campaign and they went oh and then but this this and this well I don't know I don't know what the rules are I'm like just make them up and they're like what
52:42
I just make out just say I was plus two and then just I don't know smash a wall down and they're like are you allowed to
52:47
do that how much damage can a dragon do to W go I don't care the D andd police aren't going to
52:53
turn up to your table and tell you off just make it up make it awesome right make it make it epic um so that really
53:00
kind of layered into it so we attracted um a couple of really talented and
53:05
experienced people into the role playing side of things as well and and that's now really flourishing for us as a as a
53:11
as another string to the steam Forge bag had the most controversial logo as well because it's it's a bright pink eping
53:19
Counts logo which I think when you first revealed that there was definitely a quiet room for a moment like yeah yeah
53:26
sometimes times sometimes the The Genius of an idea takes a little well for people to kind of get it it was bright
53:32
pink and it out yeah everyone knows it I saw it yeah I saw it the first time I saw it was at a con I walked past your
53:39
booth and I went oh what's that now I don't care about D and D it's not my thing but you got my attention you go so
53:46
that's you've got so you you've got the war games crowd or at least the Skirmish gamey War Games crowd with Miniatures
53:53
you've got the board games crowd with with licens things you've got um uh you've got like your D and D crowd
54:01
have you thought of like going for a larger war game crowd like you know fights against each should mention
54:09
that that's what we call a segue do you tell do tell us more so so yeah so now I
54:15
think we're at war machine so the thing that you guys started I mean you started
54:21
am all right you started as a Blog about war machine is a couple of minut yeah when we were playing we we started a
54:26
Blog and we you know Matt was doing a lot of hobby articles on you know Matt's prolific painter and doing kind of that
54:32
content I was doing more kind of the the strategy side and an incredible thrilling dice article I wrote about
54:38
dice ODS and um why you should always use kind of quality
54:45
dice but yeah so you know we started as as a you know pair of just mates and and
54:50
I think we we reached out to PP at the time and because we weren't press gangers or anything you know they volunteered sry private priv press yeah
54:58
um we reached out because we weren't press gangs or anything but obviously we were getting some good traction on you know this kind of social side and we
55:03
said could you send us any other new releases on new product coming out and I think they sent us a a bodgers game like
55:08
a little mini board game thing and it's like it just kind of hurts a little bit didn't it about then it's like you
55:15
haven't even looked at our website what part of our website makes you think that we want to review a bodgers game like
55:20
come on guys I think the time I wanted some boxing like some Min to do some unboxings cuz it was good
55:27
and we were you know we we were we were quite you well known UK scene you know we had a lot of connections and we
55:33
started to go to Europe you know started that uh me and Jamie he was kind of Affiliated as well you know we started
55:39
the European Team Championship which kind of went on to a big talk you know so we we were doing a lot of things in the community so it did kind of jills
55:45
with a little bit you know I think we forgive him now because we oh yeah but yeah like you know that's where we
55:51
started and then you know roll on 10 years now I think last um last gen on that we you know started talking well
55:56
few years prior to that as well we started talk to Matt Wilson private press um owner and you know we we were
56:03
saying you know we look to work you and and potentially as Matt said before about covid you know although covid
56:09
wasn't great for everyone for for us we we'd made a lot of strategic decisions you know the hard decisions but
56:15
strategic business decisions and it meant that we come out quite strong from the back of that and the industry as
56:21
you've probably seen especially in the board game realm and others is everyone took a hit right and we've managed to
56:27
work with a few IP holders and and found another string of our business that we has opened up which is companies that
56:33
may have been struggling where we can potentially acquire the IP and then re-engage that company on a a
56:38
development side so that way we get the IP we grow that that product but also we
56:43
get to give those people a kind of Journey you know eia I'll take as example you know uh they kind of had
56:51
they said we can't do the game anymore things like that it's not worth out we managed to go in there why the IP work
56:57
with them now working two years now with them um as a development Studio you know we're paying for that they continuing
57:03
making the game you know the IP cons as we sell the game it's been great relationship and I it's not uncommon that you you get some people who have
57:10
amazing ideas for a game and they and they make and they realize it and and and that's that's almost the easy bit
57:17
it's not but then the hard bit is then to then sustain it and build it and grow it and the business side of it and it
57:23
just because you can come up with an amazing game doesn't always necessarily go hand and glove with and you can run a successful game's business it's two
57:30
different skills I think the one I think the one that wounded me the most and and this is how I became aware of um I
57:37
became aware of war machine was because it was sold in the now long gone sadly but they used to be shopping on mly
57:43
milom here called um maom oh yeah brilant and um and I used to see uh
57:51
War Machine in there all the time but I was a big um a really big fan of Confrontation
57:57
Raam doing rackam not only shooting them in the foot but both brand new trainers
58:03
first then sh it was just the worst the worst
58:08
decision the worst business decision you'll have ever seen in your we're not sitting here saying we've made the you
58:14
know the great choice all time but you haven't racked we haven't racked no we didn't do that for those I don't know
58:20
rack and made confrontation which was a skish game beautiful wasn't itace
58:26
fantasy fantasy Miniatures things that other you know a lot of things Orcs
58:31
dwarfs ogres all those stuff but then things that he didn't have before which was like
58:37
um tribes of werewolf men they're awesome and then you had bad guy werewolf men as well like you would have
58:42
elves and dark elves and then um the human race in it was broken up into different sort of almost like religious
58:49
factions and the thing about the game that was amazing was you could play it as skish you could collect enough of and
58:55
play it as as what was known as Ragnarok which was playing it as like Warhammer fantasy battle and then it also has its
59:02
own version of basically what was called space Hall where it was basically spaceold called Nemesis but only a small
59:07
faction within the game of humans played against another one but it had an amazingly good magazine that came out
59:14
ravage yeah about Cry Havoc yeah Cry came about four times a year and that you when you played the game you needed
59:20
like a little card you didn't have a code deck you just had a card that represented your miniature or group of Miniatures if they were the same and
59:27
then they would expand the spaceold game game by going oh these mercenaries are going in or these guys are going in CU
59:33
they're friends with them or this and then they made a role playing game called um CAD Wallen which was the like
59:41
this this city of Thieves who are all you know lot guilds and all the rest of it and you could play it as a role
59:46
playing game but then you could take their Miniatures and play it in the scam game play it in the big war game some of
59:51
them mercenaries made their way underground into the the the this nemesis which is like space Hulk and it
59:57
was absolutely brilliant and you know what I was beautiful about it was when you bought Cry Havoc it would sometimes
1:00:03
have this beautiful piece of art of a miniature a painting of of of something
1:00:08
that was on the way and um you know sometimes like with
1:00:13
Games Workshop you'll get you not you don't see it so much now but they used to do concept sketches didn't they yeah I remember the early concept sketches
1:00:19
for black Templar and you went oh my God they look absolutely gothically amazing and when they turned up they came up
1:00:25
with a very small little screw that went there's a gun with a chain rounder and that was all they did but in that magazine if you've seen this
1:00:31
ridiculously ornate over the toop painting when the miniature came out it just looked exactly the same as the pain
1:00:38
oh wow it was almost like the painting was based on the miniature not the miniature was based on the painting yeah
1:00:43
and then they did this really weird decision for these beautiful they were a painters dream of miniatur were Mets as
1:00:50
well they were the yeah and they were metal and they were the first people I'd ever really ever seen doing Mmm Yeah was
1:00:55
them well I think yeah cuz I think that's a bit like Infinity actually with Ang I think the painting style was so
1:01:02
different and wow it it elevated the game people had this inspirational kind of quality
1:01:08
to it they did this thing where they made this one big creature that they made in a different material and
1:01:14
everyone was like oh are you coming away from metal and they went no we promise we're not coming away from metal this is
1:01:20
just too big to doing metal we're doing this thing and then it's like that Meme with the guy walking with his girlfriend
1:01:26
in it and then and then they decided that let's get more people into it
1:01:33
quicker and you think going from maybe going from metal going maybe to resin maybe going to
1:01:39
plastic prepainted in a box completely boltered yeah insane and they were dead
1:01:44
in what a year I mean we went to PVC and I was like we done that but to go prepainted they were dead in what a year
1:01:51
yeah it didn't take long and they were a game that was completely a painters game yeah
1:01:56
and they were dead in the so it shows you can really left it at the lighter and really straight into that quarry I
1:02:03
think you look at machine you know if you look at War Machine you know it kind of career progression of the game it was
1:02:09
the only system to ever challenge games work shop in in the US you know he absolutely huge it was lovely me there
1:02:16
say I never used to I never played a game of it but I formed over it when I was in going to buy my cry hav H going
1:02:23
into buy my competition and I wasn't infin player so I was in melstrom a lot and I used to look at it and go it's
1:02:29
just yeah the and the idea of you have a for those that don't know the game generally and you please correct me if
1:02:35
I'm wrong it generally came with like one large robot type thing called Jack and then you would have like a scam
1:02:42
team around that and it had some really cool themes like the ones that look like Russians always the yeah so it it was a
1:02:51
game that scaled from from a small Skirmish style so a warcaster maybe a couple of jacks maybe a couple of solos
1:02:57
a couple of units and then it scaled all the way up to to having many of them so you You' have four armies and then you
1:03:03
had a blended thing of there was a a fantasy spin-off but you could blend the two things together didn't you remind me
1:03:09
the name of it's called hordes thank you yeah so that was essentially the the war machine uses a focus mechanic focus is
1:03:16
the you know the uh currency and for the fantasy version is a is a fury mechanic
1:03:22
so it just it does the same thing but in a different way and but what it does which was quite clear is it just flips
1:03:29
the way you know an awful lot of things with resource management is is risk management isn't it yeah and and fury
1:03:34
did it in a way that you had to think ahead but uh if you thought ahead and you were okay whereas Focus was much
1:03:41
more about this is my my resource I need to manage this carefully Fury was I need
1:03:46
some resource in the following turn so I need to do this this and this to to have that resource available to me how long
1:03:52
was war machine dment when you took it on it it was never dormant yeah cuz you know
1:03:58
we we obviously looked at the business case of of of buying it right and so it was still there is a very hardcore
1:04:04
following you all right so the the numbers were still when you look at it you know you'd be surprised in
1:04:09
comparison to other game systems how big that following is you know the app you just give you an idea our app has got
1:04:15
20,000 people registered on the out you know so there's a lot of people I mean that's nearly doubled since we nearly
1:04:21
doubled yeah about 13 before we took it and so we've got SE massive increase which we talk about lat short but the it
1:04:29
was kind of on the decline and there's a combination of you know there's many theories online there's many videos
1:04:35
about what happened to war machine decline you know looking from anything from like the 1600 SKS they had at some
1:04:41
point you know it's taking up as you said you know racks in in a game store and um there's you know that combination
1:04:48
along with kind of the the business management side some of the decisions around that alongside kind of gains
1:04:53
Workshop waking up to the community at the time you know when when they were big there was a very much kind of closed
1:04:59
door attitude from G they've done great work you know in the last few years to to re-engage on that side and I think
1:05:06
you know when you fact draw this together uh again as well you know P went into China do some PVC not PVC hips
1:05:14
basic and then PVC basic end up with like this mix uh which didn't work well you know it's common story we're talking
1:05:20
about about material changes and how it affects player bases um and all you know led to a point when when we were talking
1:05:25
to to mat then G Matt Wilson that Co kind of hit and that was really the the
1:05:31
the sting that you know at the end of that to open other conversations you know for us you know it's an opportunity
1:05:37
piece CU what what the iron kingdoms is you know it's 20 25 years now of
1:05:42
incredible world like it's an fantastic world with one of you know the best
1:05:48
systems game systems s and Gil ball like for rues side
1:05:53
yeah one of the best systems around you know for for you for the cleaners to
1:05:58
play for how nice and straightforward it is and and easy to put on the table and understand you know and I think you know
1:06:05
when we look at the fundamentals around it you know we had to assess is it you know worth you know acquiring and and
1:06:10
taking forward it just screamed yes didn't yeah no definitely I think um I
1:06:16
think there's a couple of thing that's worth kind of highlighting is is one no one ever deliberately makes a bad decision so you only ever make the
1:06:22
decisions with the information you have and what
1:06:28
that moment it felt like a really good ide yeah um and then you get to live
1:06:35
with the results don't you so um free s yeah um so I think I think there's an
1:06:40
awful lot of as Rich says there's a commonality material change whenever you look at changeing Material there we
1:06:47
should just write a book and just give it to anyone who's starting a war gy you're thinking of material change stop
1:06:52
don't until you're really really sure cuz it is really really bad but I think g shop even did it and they were the
1:06:58
they're the biggest hitters and it didn't go well for them didn't go well for them either malif happened with malif was did they do two well they they
1:07:05
overnight swwa their entire range from metal to hips I don't know how they funded it but but they that was the
1:07:12
beginning of the the Flatline for malao as well cuz that's been kind of people don't like change to think I don't know
1:07:17
I don't know going to plastic I thought would prove I think the one I'm going to say the one one change in the room is
1:07:24
going from is going to the hips and it's mainly because of what games work established cuz you know their hip sets
1:07:30
are phenomenal right the best in the industry and it's set a standard so I think there is varying qualities in hips
1:07:36
you know and that's that's the dangerous hips is cake and eat it right you can get the quality up and you can get the
1:07:42
production volume yeah yeah right so you could have super top tier like we worked uh on bismuth kind of metal which was
1:07:48
unbelievably good slow production you know you can work with three like with resin absolutely unbel quality slow as
1:07:57
health production or you can work with hips you can get not quite to like that pinpoint perfect but you can get pretty
1:08:03
darn close you know we've all seen more than good enough it's more than good enough like you look at half the you know the games sorry the golden demon
1:08:09
entries like they're plastic kits they look phenomenal so you can definitely get the quality but they can pump out 1
1:08:14
th000 frames an hour you know whereas if you're mixing up your resin and pouring it in you might get like 10 minutes
1:08:21
historically with hips you know the the main issue with hips has been made of the investment because it's it's not
1:08:26
only a Time investment with the cost you know you know you know and over the last few years that has started to change a
1:08:33
lot you know so you know and that has allowed you know kind of us you know we're reinvested in hips and you know
1:08:39
going down the route um on certain you know things and again on on retail lines especially like Matt said it allows that
1:08:45
beautiful balance of of um delivering the amount of you know product you need along with getting the price point where
1:08:51
it is as well yeah that's I mean that's something we were talking about before is like materials are really a different
1:08:56
thing it's interesting that you've come up with like if you're thinking of a material change don't but it's kind of like right now you've you've kind of got
1:09:02
the four options haven't you but metal resin 3D printed resin which is a different material they're not the same
1:09:10
and oh five hips and PVC and I would have thought like hips is like you say
1:09:16
that if you can get to hips that's what everyone wants cuz not only do you have those benefits of like yeah production's
1:09:21
fast and and materials resilient can take a drop on the floor drop it's easy to work with well
1:09:28
relatively I'd much rather shave down a plastic than glue together any resin or
1:09:37
metal with super glue that yeah I mean G they've been doing it for a long time they and and they've got incredible
1:09:43
success and they you know they should be looked at as the leads in the industry and you know they do it for a reason and that Mak they have of you know the not
1:09:49
Forge will now but like kind of direct resin you know they do for for the kind of slower lines or the smaller lines
1:09:55
the expensive lines along with the the retail side being you know predominantly the hips is is is a really good mix I
1:10:03
often like you see on um I mean I watch a lot of painting YouTube content and
1:10:08
there's always someone who oh I'm going to shape the aquiller off and I'm like you wouldn't have done that in my day
1:10:14
mate oh God no could you imagine that yeah we shaveer off next just plaster
1:10:22
plas I'm going to sh this so I took it to this engineering
1:10:28
yeah he said should I back in six weeks I think with withs sorry yeah just going
1:10:33
to say it's good people have got choice now cuz people I've got a say I've got a preference I don't mind generally like I
1:10:40
do a lot of 3D printing just through what I do I love 3D printed models I
1:10:45
think they're fantastic the details great but again if I'm doing an army hips sometimes is a little bit easier
1:10:52
than yeah working and I think with hips as well you there is there is quality
1:10:57
hips and and and less quality hips as well and a lot of that comes down to the the technical part don't it of of and
1:11:03
you know we you know we've been working very hard on trying to get that that knowledge in to that piece hav it yeah I
1:11:09
think um one of something that's interesting sharing is is knowing the
1:11:14
material that your that your mini is going to be made into has a material impact all the way up to concept stage
1:11:21
so um take for example 3D printing something you know an awful about um if
1:11:27
you're able to sculpt a mini so it's self-supporting therefore you need less artificial supports you end up with a
1:11:33
better quality print and you can do more things with a you know like with a 3D print assuming your supporting skills
1:11:39
are cool you could have a fireball effect that kind of literally goes around the arm well you couldn't do that
1:11:44
in any other material so there are things that you can do in 3D resin you just can't do in any other material
1:11:50
similarly if you're moving into hips you need now you need to think about drafting angles and where the mold lines
1:11:56
are going to be and and and what the build instructions are going to be and and things like that so it's it's all
1:12:02
very different and that's why I think switching materials apart from Logistics
1:12:07
also really impacts everything and I don't think you realize it until you learn it the hard way so you can't just
1:12:14
go oh we've got a digital scul boom we drop that in the 3 printer and I think you know through a lot of the 3D
1:12:20
printing I've been doing is I've seen so many Miniatures out this hundreds of
1:12:25
thousands of Miniatures and what I've noticed more often than not and not to put any individual sculpter down is
1:12:31
people are fantastic sculptors incredibly detailed sculptors there are a lot of people who
1:12:37
are incredible sculptors who don't fully understand the fundamentals of putting a
1:12:43
tabletop miniature together agreed and and that again is not that's stage one
1:12:48
stage stage two is is they often don't paint yes so this is one of the things
1:12:54
that that I've tried to do since the very beginning is put paint I haven't painted every mini we've made cuz we've
1:12:59
made a lot but I've painted a lot of them um I mean fortunately I'm fast at painting but I I just think you can't
1:13:08
sign off on a mini until you've until you painted it cuz there's some Minis that look amazing and they're just not
1:13:14
fun to pay they're miserable you know the funny thing is I you know some of you know I'm a barber and I only on
1:13:21
Saturday I had one of my customers and who who's my mechanic and he actually said as St have been and he was talking
1:13:27
about how much of a pain he had had with this particular car and he says he says you know what the people at Renault who
1:13:33
design cars I never have to worry about being the person that changes the like bulb
1:13:38
right exactly it make this extraordinarily complex way of how that light comes out to get a light bul Bing
1:13:44
the simplest of job he can design it like that because he never has to worry about taking
1:13:50
that think scul I said is it a j to one of our sculps is um know sort of sh me a
1:13:56
model and and I said I think I think it's overd design I said there's too much detail in it we need to kind of
1:14:01
really you know polish up the silhouette get the Streamline it down then what you mean too much detail so I'll tell you
1:14:07
what print it off come back to me when you've painted that and you've Edge highlighted every Edge and they went oh
1:14:13
and yeah no I see what you say cool you know what that's good though and I'm glad I'm glad you're asking that
1:14:19
question because as we head into the future where 3D printing is going to become a much bigger part of everyone's
1:14:26
hobby as prices come down and availability goes up like people designing models with that in mind and
1:14:31
go actually not only do you have to print it you've got it people have got to not only paint it but enjoy the
1:14:36
process of painting if they don't enjoy a part of the experience they'll be like I'll go and buy something else it's a
1:14:42
great I mean we we love 3D we 3D printing very much so you know we we guil bought when we brought it back as a
1:14:48
pod we did two free STL sets so people can download and play Guild ball like I mean back in the day we give free Rule
1:14:55
books and cards and that was our way of kind of getting people to play the game the fact we can now say literally go and play Guild ball for free is brilliant
1:15:02
right and you know and and you know we want the same kind of thing for where we're going you know and yeah I think
1:15:08
you're right though is that it is there's engineering that goes behind that that is not as obvious and and
1:15:14
again it's just experience time and working with that stage and I think although it's a cool boom here at the
1:15:20
moment we've got a lot of Boom you know happening I think what we'll see over time now is is that you know people will
1:15:25
want them kind of supporting mods that really do know print nice and E I've seen a few um there's the Australian
1:15:32
Channel come they pop up on my YouTube shorts every now tetp time yes and they
1:15:37
were talking about the crew the the couple of guys and and and a lady yeah yeah um but they they were talking about
1:15:44
overdesigned yeah they really good content they were talking about Games Workshop Minis and they're saying they
1:15:49
they're coming more and more overdesigned and I think it's a I see it in uh in game design as well that you
1:15:56
you think that adding complexity and adding layers is actually better design and it's it's kind of not like it's just
1:16:04
one rules were showing that that oh one page rules are awesome UK that really
1:16:09
cool I already enjoyed that I mean I don't know I don't know if I'd ever make it my full game but to kind of rock up
1:16:15
and just throw throw some minis down definitely would play it yeah that's it and they're keeping it simple as well like people I've seen in the forums cuz
1:16:22
I work with them quite a bit and uh people are like oh your your minis are too simple I'm like no they're not no
1:16:27
they're actually like you soran they've got soran star host which are lizard men in space and I'm like even even there
1:16:34
little bit over yeah um men men yeah yeah that's rep
1:16:39
reptilian men in space why do we think Space Marines were so have been so popular you spray them one color you
1:16:46
paint on a few bits and you kind of done aren't you that's it and that's what GW it's so accessible and and if only the
1:16:53
games were um but yeah our other show but yeah like you know and it's
1:16:59
that it's the accessibility of like whether you want to get into a game or you want to do this like Space Marines versus Space marange you can do but you
1:17:05
can just paint them they are so they are made of simple cylinders ovals what
1:17:11
other shapes are there squares rectangles diamonds diamonds I'm trying
1:17:16
to try to think of me thing when I was a kid what goes in the still playing that now aren't you all goes in the Square
1:17:22
squ but yeah it's um but it's that sort of thing it's simple it's approachable and yeah it's good that like not
1:17:28
everyone needs to be that simple but you're right like to have somebody you don't even need to have made Miniatures
1:17:34
but you need to have spent the time you guys have spent as War Gamers looking at them painting them and going what do I
1:17:42
enjoy about this and how can I I'll pick on something because I can dunk on it now um was back in the day for troll
1:17:49
Bloods there was a a one point uh so it's one point out of 75 points there was a un attachment the chronicler yeah
1:17:57
chronicler and it and it you really wanted it because it brought an awful lot of functionality it was it was great value one point it fantastic and like I
1:18:04
say I'm quite quick at painting models if I take longer than 60 Minutes to paint the model then I'm I'm kind kind
1:18:09
of sad I like sort 30 minutes you know is is my sweet spot he's being modest here he's insanely good at speed
1:18:15
painting like and it's depressing for anyone
1:18:22
else I can show you that working on took me four hours it had stitches it had
1:18:27
studs it had Scrolls it had like tassel it had like I mean why am I spending four hours pain this one point model was
1:18:34
like ridiculous I I think the comment on on miniature design is it comes where people come out the wrong way when they
1:18:40
say a miniature is too simple I think the answer is the miniature is complex enough H yeah I like I think is the is
1:18:47
the answer to that I think yeah yeah so what is um next up for war
1:18:53
machine ooh so we we working through yeah no we can absolutely so there's a couple of layers
1:19:00
to it so we have one eye on the now and then we have why one eye on the future um and for now the important things is
1:19:07
to steady the ship strengthen where needed um and conserve where where we're
1:19:13
not needed so right now uh fortunately um the design team and the direction in
1:19:19
which they in which the team are going is actually really strong so for my dire
1:19:24
direct responsibility of of oversight of the creative Endeavor it's actually kind of an easy gig at the moment and there's
1:19:30
a few things that I you know that we want to shape and and massage but these are more kind of minor nudges or you
1:19:37
know slight you know sort of realignments but nothing kind of Earth shattering where we do need to spend a
1:19:43
bit more time is is on the production side of things because as demand is increasing and it and it exploded as
1:19:49
rich said it almost doubled overnight when we took on board and what we thought was a was a big enough window
1:19:56
for manufacturing for our kind of first 4A into releasing stuff for sale
1:20:01
actually wasn't so that's fine not a problem nice problem to have so um so we're strengthening the production side
1:20:07
of things we we're you know building new farms and and whatnot to kind of get that all ramped up and it's also a
1:20:13
degree of you know retraining the the team to kind of understand how to work in in a more efficient way a more
1:20:20
effective way um similarly with the the marketing side of things so that uh Rich's uh direct team is is building a
1:20:28
marketing plan that's coherent with the releases that we we're doing the products that we're working on and making sure we've got some good content
1:20:34
coming out so it's really as you are but just better in the places that were a little bit on the weak side um beyond
1:20:41
that there is definitely uh some uh some hard decisions that got to be made you know as Rich touched on earlier War
1:20:48
Machine if you talk to a retailer or distributor it's Infamous for the scope creep or the skew creep so one of the
1:20:55
things I think the Games Workshop does brilliantly and we're absolutely going to copy them um is they will sell you
1:21:00
know you can go in on the stockist program you get a rack you can go on to the two rack you get two racks if you
1:21:06
want to go beyond that that's under you you know you you know you do you but but Games Workshop will curate a two rack
1:21:14
product range so it will have some of the new releases some of the stuff that always sells and everything like
1:21:20
that exactly so for a store because most store especially here in the UK and in Europe where where floor space is so
1:21:27
expensive you know they don't want something that's going to take up an entire wall and and or if it is going to
1:21:33
take up an entire War it needs to be high turn and and it isn't always high turn if you're trying to carry esoteric
1:21:39
you know 1 point that take four hours to paint then you know you're not going to sell one of those every hour you you
1:21:44
might sell one of those one a month kind of thing so so that's something that we working on is is closely with our
1:21:51
distribution and Retail Partners to to make sure we got that Cur at range um so
1:21:56
they understand um what what the commitment is in terms of their floor space and then harmonious with that and
1:22:02
and perhaps most importantly out of all of these things is is actually uh properly defining and designing uh the
1:22:09
funnel we call it it's it's the it's the onboard system so what is the very best place to discover War Machine what would
1:22:16
that user Journey look like what is the next best place to go to how are people going to feel about it what questions
1:22:21
are they going to have at the various stages and making sure that we're designing products and creating content
1:22:26
that makes that process a lot easier because I mean we've all got into you know someone's shown you a brand new game you're going oh it looks amazing
1:22:32
where do I start they go I'll read this and you're like can you just tell me that thing to
1:22:37
buy please here's 50 Quid can I just have some some minis I don't care if they're great or not just just want to
1:22:43
get going so we want to make it a lot easier for people to to overcome that
1:22:48
kind of barrier for entry yeah I have I have a question um as you both said at
1:22:53
the beginning of the of the interview you are were big war machine
1:22:59
players how hard is it when you take on something that you already loved to put
1:23:06
a gap between you and it because you know someone said to me you know you're now Running Games Workshop you're now
1:23:12
running the spa even just the Space Marine line sure obviously it would all lean into what I love but how hard is it
1:23:18
when you some of us it's harder than I knew was going to now we're getting Z
1:23:25
now we we we we did you know before we did this acquisition we we sat down and both you know me and Matt said look we
1:23:32
know how passionate this is how much we love this game and how much it's been a part of our lives but at the end of the
1:23:38
day we if we use that correctly it's only going to be a strength for the brand that we do yeah if we use it
1:23:44
poorly we're going to make terrible bus decisions and we're going to be in a bad place so you know we'll have a lot of minis have a lot of Min so I think we
1:23:52
you know we have you know we are very ious it's not just us you know we say me and Matt you know Steam for is you know
1:23:57
50 people now a lot of them play War Machine and you know come from that that background and so we've been mindful for
1:24:04
the whole team everyone has this you know in the back of their heads but what it has done I think and this is unique
1:24:09
to Steve Forge you know is that we are Gamers we are Miniature Gamers we are very specifically come from the war
1:24:15
machine you know Heritage the care and love we have for this brand is is just like we created ourselves you know we
1:24:21
we've been there you know and I think that will through and it does come through and we talk about it and what
1:24:27
we're doing with the brand you know we we very much feel like we are custodians now of of this world and we want to do
1:24:33
the right decisions from all the experience we talked about in the show you know the you know all those 10 years of of going through the good the bad the
1:24:40
ugly all that experience now is is given us this chance to work on something that we we started off with and it's you know
1:24:47
it's it's crazy still thinking 10 years we're here but we are massively looking forward to it and like M I said it's not
1:24:53
overnight we've got to do we've got to strengthen the the support of the game we've got to get it into Europe you know
1:24:58
it's 35% of the audience was in Europe and right now it's like zero because of the Supply right and you know there's
1:25:04
some Basics we' got to do but as the story starts to you know come out over the next few months and into next year I
1:25:11
think it's going to be really clear that the passion and how that transition is coming into the for me it's it's a it's
1:25:18
about channeling it in the right way so you know we all consume kind of pop culture and media you know we know that
1:25:24
love can can make you do great things and terrible things right people have killed other people for love and people
1:25:30
have done some most amazing self you know self-sacrifices for love so it's channeling it in the right way so so
1:25:37
making sure that we build the team uh that's you know for war machine that has that sort of almost self-regulating or
1:25:44
peer regulation sort of feel are we losing sight of of you know are we
1:25:49
getting too far down the rabbit hole is this still the right decision is it the cool thing to do but then having that
1:25:55
perspective of the end user and going how excited would I be to see I'm actually really excited about this so yeah yeah right so it's so it's Channel
1:26:02
it in the right way but it's must be a terrible balance it's yeah no I mean
1:26:08
dude we make toy soldiers for a living none of my none of my life is that St um it's fun and it's you know and and
1:26:17
I think the the greatest you know thing that anyone could do for for their for their living is do something they love
1:26:23
doing right so so if you don't have the love or the passion for what you do then
1:26:28
it becomes a lot harder and a lot more soulless I think and so you know the day that we wake up and we're not passionate
1:26:33
about not just war machine but any game that we make then then I think it's a it's a sad day and and probably be you
1:26:40
know the beginning of the end if I'm honest with you dramatic about it there used to always be this kind of AA of of
1:26:45
work life balance but I think you know I think for us it's it's just life right
1:26:51
and and as long as that all works together and we're in you know the privileged position now of being able to
1:26:57
do something that's been massive part of our lives and and having that all together as long as it works well it's
1:27:02
great like and we I wouldn't change it for the world really wouldn't you know but again as you know as rich said like
1:27:08
the fact that we have um like Equity Partners also helps really make sure
1:27:13
that feet stay on the ground we do have um clear sets of goals and structure you know you know the way that the the
1:27:20
business is set up there's there's proper reporting so it it's sobering it's important and and the reason it's
1:27:26
important is because it allows you to carry on and the more successful you are the more stuff you can then do and I
1:27:32
think that's something that rich and I have have always wanted to do is is we in a perfect world we do everything
1:27:38
right but we can't do that quite yet so what can we do now that's going to let us do two more things and then when we've done those can we do four more
1:27:44
things and when we've done that can we do eight more things and you know that's always been our attitude and it's not
1:27:49
attitude to yeah and it's more cuz we I don't know like again I don't want to be too more you know but since turning 50
1:27:55
I'm kind of conscious that there's a clock now and like how many how many more games can I work on in in my lifetime well want well and work on
1:28:02
shitloads you know so you got to work hard work fast work smart and and really enjoy what you do yeah fantastic so
1:28:09
conscious we uh we're going to talk about paint in a different later on this afternoon so I think we don't we uh oh I
1:28:16
can talk about paint yes sorry yeah yeah next week coming back might be wearing
1:28:21
the same shirt um so uh you yeah like I said we put some
1:28:28
bits out on patreon and um some some of them are are joyfully silly uh so Tim
1:28:34
says do you really use steam to forge your games and if yes how do you avoid warping the
1:28:41
cardboards a good question that a good question I've often been described
1:28:46
having steam coming out my ears when I get annoyed about something I I do have a slightly volatile I remember visiting
1:28:52
CH remember when we visited China see in the rooms they have the cardboard in because of the humidity so it's a
1:28:59
fascinating thing because obviously cardboard will warp in in China with the heat and that but they have fully special rooms where they put the
1:29:05
cardboard in to level it and make sure it's flat so you don't want do with the Bendy boards basically it's quite a tough resources isn't it to go in China
1:29:11
One of the um one of the richest women in the world one of the richest Chinese women owns a um import export business
1:29:19
and when she sends her containers Out full of wherever they're going in the world if them containers haven't got
1:29:27
something to come back she has deals with people in that country that they come back for a
1:29:32
car wow yeah because they don't have a big forestry industry yeah we've had issue with card stock and you know card
1:29:39
stock we've often you know they I don't know I'm f with car we got Black core and blue core and different kind of qualities and that but some of the like
1:29:46
the Black core they had to develop their own version in China of black court because it was coming from they just couldn't get the supply of it and that
1:29:52
was a massive issue for the card game industry for quite a while thought it was low cuz like I of what I've heard of
1:29:58
like printing comes quite low cost out of China for like books and things like that so but it can it varies on the card
1:30:05
it's purely what paper and card they can get access to and and that dictates the price because one thing that's uh like
1:30:11
typical first world problem uh like gw's boxes the card stock has been reduced to
1:30:17
almost paper um and that frustrates me CU it's just not as durable as it used to be uh or the experience of opening it
1:30:24
I'm just like oh it's all flimsy thats its premiumness doesn't yeah yeah but then then you'd be paying more of a
1:30:31
premium to get say lax's price match yes got say a bit happy expensive car
1:30:36
compared to the shipping cost when we were sending models that cost the same price to ship them that was a fun time
1:30:42
when it when that happened yeah Cy yes um then we have yeah one last question
1:30:47
uh which is if you could get any license uh for a game which license would it be and what type of game would you make
1:30:53
with holding to this this is just f as fans of watch care
1:31:01
say yeah just put Lo of beat that's a tough one cuz like typically I have that list and they're
1:31:08
the ones that I go after so there's one we both League of Legends is League of Legends amazing
1:31:16
I've played a lot of League over the years and and I think there's so much you could do with that and the art that they've got and you've got like the
1:31:22
Netflix show already built built into it be fantastic to work on that Fallout
1:31:27
came out medus were just like yeah to Christ and he like yeah it just went
1:31:33
crazy like overnight their standard Gen Con oh it was a good show as well wasn't it I thought they did really well with that show the show the show was
1:31:39
incredible um I think they absolutely nailed it and then off the back of that
1:31:44
it's going to bring so many people into the every other like the video games the board games like the stand was
1:31:52
predominantly for Fallout have gone through the roof haven't they recently yeah the game yeah
1:31:58
the game yeah even I I started again I never finished four no I did I never played 76 I was like I'll give it a go
1:32:05
it's not bad like no Far Cry from what it was but uh oh Far Cry that could
1:32:11
be we I mean we got Elden ring which was a massive you know we were super happy
1:32:16
to get that you know from from Bandai MCO um that was definitely on our list of things we'd love to work on um yeah
1:32:22
there's probably some we can't talk about as well they yeah can you can you give us any scoop
1:32:29
for our show well we've had any scoop you are we've had a bit yeah all right
1:32:36
sorry if you say no it's cool but we're just I'm J I'm putting you on the spot or or maybe another one is like when
1:32:43
when for for something like War Machine when do you think will we'll hear like
1:32:48
the next announcement things well for war machine so so for war machine uh the
1:32:54
next really big uh thing that we're gearing up for will be ad Decon next year yes all right so we we're g to try
1:33:00
and get back into uh doing Keynotes um what something we did for gild ball
1:33:05
thoroughly enjoyable experience like had a lot of fun giving them and and the audience seem to really enjoy it so
1:33:11
we're looking to um make adep Con one of our kind of key marketing beats uh you
1:33:18
know per calendar year um so so that would be a lot of big announcements of of what plans are for the for the next
1:33:25
12 months after that um other than Scoops for your show I mean we've got have we announced
1:33:34
yet no no we can cut that out we can cut that out I could beep it I mean just beep it
1:33:42
go say again no yeah we I think we're about to do
1:33:47
some quite big announcements that be a lot of bleeps at this moment
1:33:55
they'll be reading yeah just do the what's it the Bruce Le uh
1:34:00
yeah to do that um obviously I think one thing that could be useful because obviously I think clearly through you
1:34:06
guys talking about Gil ball about the the uh the license games about war machine the community feedback is quite
1:34:14
crucial for you guys and and quite helpful for you to just get the feedback
1:34:19
to understand where where people want the these the systems to go where would
1:34:25
be the best place for people to communicate that feedback so we yeah we we just recently did a survey actually
1:34:32
um that we put out uh to to survey the audience you know obviously requireing thatway see that and we we got several I
1:34:38
think it's 5,000 overnight like could just replies to brilliant like and it's helped us understand a lot about war
1:34:43
machine and what people want and don't want from the brand but a lot of our discussions and that going on on Discord
1:34:49
so Discord g/ steamforged you'll find all our kind of ongo chat you'll find us
1:34:55
in there along with our our team we regular talk to people um and yeah Ste forge.com is is obviously the other
1:35:01
place that a lot of our news goes on our Facebook socials I hang out on the Reddit theit as
1:35:07
well yeah I'm a bit old Discord confuses me a little bit I have to say yeah we're
1:35:12
not too dissimilar and I'm like I've got a Discord for my channel and I'm like I've joined the one for this channel as
1:35:17
well I don't get it pat what what how far back I got read to understand what's going on exactly scroll scroll you don't
1:35:24
need H Panic we also do our newsletter as well so that's on steeve Forge guns I grabb the newsletter that usually keep
1:35:31
people up today and then uh I think it's a as a final sort of question for myself what like my what I feel like I've
1:35:38
gleaned from you guys is you do so much and so many different types of games uh
1:35:44
and I think to myself KY like how on Earth do you have all the time to do it what's what's the favorite uh game that
1:35:51
you've that you've released so far favorite game oh well out of all of them
1:35:57
it's a lot of stuff that's going to be Gil ball for me it's got yeah it's got a big Gil ball because it's the one that
1:36:03
we created as designers and developers you know all the way graphic design some
1:36:08
situations we did a lot on that project and that was you know our first thing we brought to Market they all have
1:36:14
different stories and and different reasons to love them you know Horizon happened a really intense time for us
1:36:20
you know as a as a as a company uh and Landing that and getting that over the line was an absolute Triumph you know
1:36:27
and it felt really good and and then to see the respon you know then being given the chance to make the game then kicking
1:36:33
out of the park you know an absolutely awesome game that's that's super cool so seeing you know Resident Evil go from a
1:36:41
you know a single game and building it out into a you know a huge franchise for us is is really cool as well so yeah
1:36:46
it's really hard to kind of like one siiz one siiz fits all Gilbo is the first game still love it a bit they all
1:36:54
have stories don't they like you know even even like war machine was that weird place of meeting your idol CU like Matt Wilson for us was like someone who'
1:37:00
made This brilliant game we invest some time to and you know going through that Journey with him and you know working now as a you know with his development
1:37:06
Studio side that the Matt does is just awesome but yeah definitely each one's got their own little own little story
1:37:13
yeah fantastic amazing wonderful all right thank you so much chat thank J and
1:37:19
we'll see you again really soon next week
1:37:25
cheers guys
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