Hilarious Untold Stories from Games Workshop History!

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and Bri Brian Brian wanted him on the phone because he could speak Posh
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described a pony BBC voice the one in my office down there oh
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number one number one unmade I would get on a plane is the my luggage and I would
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fly to Baltimore and work on the same issue of white dwarf in America for a week and then come back and pick up
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white dwarf in the UK and I did that for something like nine months we used to refer it refer to the studio as the
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fuzzy felt Department well science fiction games don't sell
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you know so even the boss wasn't always right yeah no absolutely not and as Andy
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Jones tells it at that point he turned around and there was a guy with a with a rifle covering him in a police uniform
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he goes oh is this part of it as if it's less than two grand I'll have
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it I love into the am clothes so when they reached out to sponsor a video I
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smashing enjoy the show hi I'm peachy hi I'm Jeff and you may notice we're in
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different surroundings today with with a very different backdrop and very different guests as well so as always
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with our our chat shows we introduce these lovely fellas in a moment or two um we have a patreon so if you want to
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have the opportunity to ask some questions then consider joining the patreon there's many tear uh and you get
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to ask questions like the Colossus that is John stalard or the giant that is Robin juwes and together it makes them
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seem the same size that is a reference from Mitchell and web if anyone knows that that is a terrible terrible reference uh so without further Ado have
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you never seen it pat pat is here by the way Pat is here he's just not visible there not of mics apparently there he is
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we can see him if you can't unfortunately so um I'm going to
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introduce our guests so if you don't know anyone uh out there you don't know who these are it would be surprised if you don't know who they are but chances
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are you might not we have John Stallard and Robin juw John would you briefly introduce who you are what you do and
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maybe what you did uh I'm John stalard i r warlord games in the mighty Nottingham
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and before that I was at gangs work shop for about 24 years so uh man and boy
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type thing here we are that is a long time long time ago you have to push that bicycle a cobble Street to get to games
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where back it was it was like that tfield CH and what about you Robin well uh my
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name is Robin dues and I joined Games Workshop in 1989 March in fact 13th of
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March uh and then I wor went straight into the design studio I've done some stuff as a freelancer for for Games
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Workshop before then got some stuff published in white dwarf saw a job and went I can do that so I got a job in the
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studio then in 1990 I became white dwarf editor so I edited white dwarf in the early '90s
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from 91 I think to '95 and then I took over the job of Studio manager for the rest of the '90s into the naughties so
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that golden period of all the most wonderful games in the world came out of that studio yeah we we were debating
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before the the before you came like were you before PA saw or after PA saw oh before before were you were you before
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my friend that's next one were you before Jake thoron I was but I recruited Jake Thornton and trained Jake Thornton
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did good and and and AD wood J J and AD were two of my recruits yeah I I became
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White do editor after in 1991 and it was actually no 1990 let me think I did 50 issues
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that's four years and two months 139 to 189 oh wow yeah I I don't even
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remember what I did in the studio soos 50 50 issues but I got my first
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mentioning 113 which is when I joined the amazing so we are obviously that that we'll be delving into like Back
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stories a lot because that is probably the the vein of the show but you recently produced a book called talking
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Miniatures which um is very that that kind of stuff's really close to my out
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because we've had a few guests on our Channel which have talked about stuff in the past oh look at that look at that
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volume one volume two this was rehearsed minutes rehearsing this didn't
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uh we're not advertising this I do have a question later on about volume three so we'll come to
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that there is volume three um but yeah so um talking about stuff from the past
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certainly from my era those Rose tinted glasses and stuff it's really good and having that put down in paper format so
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there's a living document of it in history so we don't forget it I mean we
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we've had a few people on the chat show we've talked about stuff like that I guess I've answered my own
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question really but the question is what made you start
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when did you start this project and what was did it actually become what you expected it to be or is it more than
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that now John do you want to have a go I'll have a go for yes I'll pitch in for see anything uh it was according to Robin up
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to five years ago now five years ago you started this over over five years ago Robin and I uh kept in touch when we
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both left workshop and Robin does a lot of training things for people to keep his hand in and uh we came over came
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over to my place and we're chatting away sitting in the garden having digested biscuits and drinking tea and either of
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us came up with one or more ludicrous story from Games Workshop and uh and how we laughed and uh and we thought yeah he
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said they wouldn't believe it now I think no no you wouldn't and then we said yeah well there's a few people popping off now you know and there not
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so many of us around anymore which is true bless him and uh and we said well
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we should probably write this down you know some idiots got to write it down so some idiots did write it down wasn't you
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though right ah no we thought we could so we thought we should we should write a book and uh and uh and then that
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crystallized into we shouldn't write it we should get X Games Workshop people other than us to write the book so um
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the plan was to find as many uh X Games Workshop employees because the ones who work for Workshop aren't allowed to give
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interviews and such uh uh generally and so we found 17 Confederates and people
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who we all knew from the old days who we thought would be interesting and have a great story to tell so in the end it's
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it's um certainly not a history of Games Workshop because uh serin in has already done that the dice men of course yes
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which excellent book by the way if you want the history but this tells stories uh and uh so we found 17 people uh some
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we weren't able to find and some we just couldn't fit in if you notice there's 500 pages so that's why it's in two
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volumes and uh there's awful an awful lot that we haven't included isn't there Robin there's quite a lot that we
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haven't included so for various reasons illegal reasons may or may not
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go into so what we did was over this period of 5 years obviously because of coid and all that it took a bit longer
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and some people were abroad and all that so we did some by uh uh over the web but mostly it was onet to ones wasn't it we
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did face to face we started out face to face you know we I mean the project started with John and I actually went around to Rick's house you know Rick
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Priestley he was an old mate and we just I've got a little digital recorder and I just punked it down on the table and
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John I said okay Rick tell us how you came to work for Games Workshop and and and these stories started to flow and
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what I found amazing listening back to the tapes is lots of these people have been interviewed before you know Rick's
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very famous of course as a games designer but when people talk to him or Andy Chambers or Jervis Johnson it's all
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a bit differential it's kind of you know Mr Priestley please tell us your wisdom whereas what we got on table was three
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old mates sitting around drinking tea chuntering about the old times and a story from John would trigger a
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recollection in Rick which would trigger a story from me and we were all there at the same time and we came away from that
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meetting with heresy that was amazing I never heard anything like that and then we rolled
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into oh who was next we saw Paul at your around your kitchen T was very good Paul
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Sawyer and then the Magnificent Perry twits Oh the Perry twits were the per the Peres were insane because they have
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a hive m they finish each other's sentences the funny thing is that always seems just be like a stereotype with
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twins but I have heard with the Perry's that it's act real it really is I'm actually trying to decode the tapes with
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oops sorry my watch is starting to talk we got a fifth person in the interview now and whilst we're interviewing them
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in in comes a squirrel through the window and they feeding it peanuts we try to have this sensible conversation
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there's a bloody squirrel involved the book as well please tell me I think the squirrel I think I think Ed does know at
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this point the squirrel can amazing and and so what I think what talking Ministries is is something really unique
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and actually you know I kind I've got to be proud of this because with John we put this together but I've never seen a
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story told in that way cuz it's the story told in the voices of the people who are there it's not a third person
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kind of collecting this and then rewriting it it's their voices and we made a very quick decision not to kind
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of write this as a a narrative but let the voices speak it's like an oral history really it's an oral history it's
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actually those people and it's not just the designers I it's not just the you know the studio people we talked to a
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whole range of people from you know salesman and what we call the Craftsman and the cat herders Tony Epworth who's a
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master mold maker who if you had bought a citel miniature in the 1980s EP would have made the mold for it and he knows
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as much about mold making as anyone on this planet and lots and lots of different kinds of people uh from the
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company it it was just really exciting and after 177 I I phoned up John said John I think we've got nearly 500 pages
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here we' got got 200,000 words what are we going to do and that's where we got to I I suppose the thing you touched on
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there as well is like because you're you're chatting in that kind of like conf comfortable environment it is more
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sort of it's not rehearsed it's not too strict it's just chilled out conversational because we found that
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when we have like chats and stuff and well I talk to like Dave Andrews or like people even now like the Paris are S at the weekend at parties and stuff yeah
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you know you're in that relaxed environment so you're giving a bit more and you're comfortable with the people you're talking to when normally you get like the interview sort of podcast and
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things like that or like you go and do an editorial level stuff it's a bit more you're not defensive but you you only
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give the information to the question that you're asked right yeah you do and it's what I call a bit deferential the interviewer is a bit deferential to the
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you know a big word I don't know what it means well they're they're treating people as if they're extraordinary or
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famous or something and we're not we're just people you know I was lucky I got
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in the right place at the right time and and worked hard and did a decent did a decent job I'm not
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you know I'm not Rick Priestley or jez Goodwin you know these people who are super talented I was just in the right
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place the right time and I could do the job that was needed to be done as was John he could do the job that needed to be done he joined Citadel as the
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salesman when he was the only salesman and it was because he had a posh voice and Brian Brian Brian wanted
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him on the phone because he could speak Posh described a pony BBC voice probably probably not allowed to
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say that these days so I should be canceled sorry and that's the truth of it and actually
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it's all of the people you know Trish card and Trish Morrison she was then you know she started out as a jewelry student she she was making jewelry that
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was her that's where she learned her skills as a Smith and a craftswoman was making jewelry but then her boyfriend
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was Ali Morris and he was making little Miniatures oh can I ever go at that and that's how Trish became a golden
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miniature designer so then we we had masses of tape well Robin had mass of tape and uh and we gave it to the
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amazing Helen moley who's been the book as as well to type it all up and uh and
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try and work out which of the peries was talking normally both at the same time
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so we just gave up halfway through it's one of the peris is talking and so she she typed it all up
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uh thank you Helen by the way and then that came back to Robin who then Super edited it and said oh you know I think
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that's what they meant to say you can't always catch every word so uh and then we got the manuscript together so that's
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uh and then and awful lot of um research mainly by Robin I have to point out um
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finding wonderful artifacts finding the old white dwarfs finding the old uh uh games day ticket stubs all this and so
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we went around all our mates have you got any old t-shirts have you got any of this come take a picture of that only had known I could helped you out with
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that I have a friend who's got a Avid collector of everything he's said well he be GW and he's got everything that
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he's ever attended still Andy Jones has all of that kind of collection as well yeah we actually I don't think we put it
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in the book we did did have the pictures of the two unmade Thunderhawk gunships as well oh they're you and you these on
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in the nice wooden display Cas one in my office down there oh number one number
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one unade that'll be worth a lot just say extra shutters on warlord now that
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that g out the take a picture of that before you go that would be good so you
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know for me and I think for John as well I mean the whole project we we made up this project because we thought it was a really cool thing we should do it cuz
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we're all getting old you know we're old men now we're not we're not youngsters we're getting old and decrepit and we are going to start forgetting this
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before and we need we needed to write it down uh but it was a real labor of love and for me you know we we had we both
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had good careers at gangs Workshop we're kind of comfortable in our old menus and what I but I what I wanted to do was do
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something that people would love that people who are in The Hobby and i' just been fantastic for me I run a little
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Facebook group called talking Miniatures where people can you know it's just an open group just around the book and
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people that have come into that say oh God God I was 14 when you and can these These are guys who are
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now 40 or 50 with kids of their own and it's just been really fantastic to connect back through this book with that
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time and with these people who are just so happy I mean like when I was a kid I mean I'm of the era when you when I was
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this is going to make you feel old do apologize I am old I am old it's okay when I was a teenager had the white
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dwarf in the back of the car and there was like you know your face on there and there was like necromunda like scenarios and battle reports and stuff and I was
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like really into and you know it there's so much nice Nostalgia and I do think
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that like as as white dwarfs progressed over the years it's lost a bit of that and it's such a shame that there are elements I think it's coming back with
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like some of the new stuff that they're doing like that like the way that the the the magazine is handled and I've got there's a really good question by one of
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our patrons which I'll Chuck out near the end but um but yeah hearing these stories just reminds me of all those
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those good times I had when I was younger and I was getting into the Hobby and I think that's true but we also have to make no bones about it what Workshop
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is doing today's breathtaking what they're doing with plastics and Engineering miniature I just I kind
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of but at the same time it makes me really really kind of go why you you
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remember what we were doing because you know those early white dwarves you know we're talking analog here everything was
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analog there was no Digital Data there wasn't any dig digital publishing data in that early 90s period I used to work
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on a white dwarf in the UK for 3 weeks we would get films know what I'm talking
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about here but these were films back from the printer not digital files literally printed negative films yeah
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like micro fish no actually full full fulls size full page films laid out on
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16 page sections wow I would roll them up I would get on a plane there the my luggage and I would fly to Baltimore and
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work on the same issue of white dwarf in America for a week and then come back and pick up white dwarf in the UK and I
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did that for something like N9 months until JY VTO was and and Drew will were in the studio in Baltimore and that's
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what they're doing so everything was analog the the photography was analog camera on your phone no no you set up a
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shot for a battle report and you were shooting on film so You' take a Polaroid remember those clip that would come out
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you take a Polaroid to set the shot and then you bracket it you take the shot you'd open the stop you'd open the the
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f- stop one to get a little bit bit more lighting you close it down to shut it down and that would be it you then send
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it to a processor and that was it if it came back it came back if it didn't come back you were screwed oh wow that's the
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that's the way it was in those days every aspect we used to refer it to refer to the studio as the fuzzy felt
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Department I mean I I weirdly I did a little bit of not editorial but I did some uh magazine making when I was uh at
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college and I went to this um work placement and I got a massive appreciation of white dwarf at that time
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because I I probably not the same was obviously a bit more Hightech but a lot of it was like cutting out articles
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sticking them in onto a page with a text underneath it aligning it photocopying
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it that's right because it was all like you know random bits of information you had to stagger together to put into one
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page and I was like is this how they make white dwarf because this is taking forever and I I did one magazine like in
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in like a week cuz I was obviously young and idiotic and I didn't know what I was doing still don't to be fair um just I
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just Wing my way through life it seems to be going all right at the moment but yeah just seeing that kind of process
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and when I moved into the studio as well like all the things went beyond the scenes and I was like how is this business still alive some of the stuff
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that goes on but again it coming back to the book and what we what we've done you know one of the unsung heroes that comes
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through the book and I think it's Richard Ard and somebody else talks about is Charlie Elliot and you kind go who's Charlie
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Elliot who who the hell is Charlie Elliot Charlie Elliott is the guy that designed Warhammer 40,000 Road Trader
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wow that book that has since been publ you know was published in 1987 so a 40
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year old book it's been republished in in fact simly editions by Games Workshop on the 30th annary announced again and
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they've just announced it again Charlie Elliot was the graphic designer that worked in the studio and the look and
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the feel of that book is in the hand came out of the hands and the brain of Charlie Elliott anyone ever heard of Charlie ellot he's called Chaz Elliot he
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was a mate of Tim paard he appears in the book Richard Ard who we interview in the book actually gives him that due
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credit and says the guy that you know the debt that we owe to that guy cuz that book is still as sexy as hell you
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look at it you go wow look at it's cool it's planets it's space it's Space Marines but it has that dark Grim feel
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that people really resonate with and that's Charlie Elliott it was something extraordinary when it came out that that
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that book it was mildly Sinister it was wonderful yeah it got a copy people just
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you know you didn't know what to do with it they think wow there's a lot of satire in it as well isn't he you know a
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lot of a lot of reflection of of 1980s of Britain I think when you look at it there is a lot yeah there is a lot and
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you can tell that a lot of it is it's like it's like 2000 ad you can tell that it's people involved on that have at
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some point in time been punks and have been you know quite rebellious students it was hippies and it was punks and it
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was kind of all that non well on the back of the book we describe as the the group of rebels non-conformist that kind
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of gravitated towards Cal Miniatures because you know Miniatures and toys were rock and roll at the time I mean
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imagine the world with no computer games yeah yeah there were no computer games there was a ZX Spectrum if you were
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lucky in in 98 but actually if you wanted to engage
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with fantasy and science fiction Minish with the way to do it if you wanted to participate stories there were no there
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were no games there were no there were no um consoles none of that this was it
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this was it maybe pong yeah if you're lucky this was it and this was how through fantasy gaming and tabletop
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gaming is how you engage with fantasy and SciFi that's why it was so cool and why it was so edgy rock and roll
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interesting the books of those ear cuz I did the illustration at you un influen my art style just like that pen and ink
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just real simplified like art style you know I you get like comic book artists and stuff like loads of graphic
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designers nowadays are very colorful and but I was just very black and white line drawings just CU it was all the stuff
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like the in Miller art and stuff like that but that's no again Chris that's no trivial thing because actually what was
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going on there and it's you know a lot of this goes down to Tony akland and John blanch is a lot of the fancy stuff
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particularly the fancy stuff that was coming out of um I'm smiling because of a line from Tony akland in the book that
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I might tell you about but a lot of that fantasy stuff was coming was coming out of America and America was very comic
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book and so what you got coming out of American fantasy art was this very comic book style um whereas what was coming
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out of the uks you know people like John Blan and Tony John was really into mvin Peak and Gorman Gast and that you know
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Ian Miller and that really dark Bleak kind of uh almost prer raffal like kind
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of style of painting that that's what they emulated and that's what that's what that's what they created in Games
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Workshop products and that was very different but now that's the standard style if you look at things like games of Game of Thrones and all of that it's
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got that dark gritty Punk realism about it that wasn't there in the 1980s it
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came out of Games Workshop and it came out well I think as well I think um I think it went sort of Tandem with 2 ad
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they were very much the same CU I always think whenever I think of the Empire I always think of the the the the the sort
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of totalitarian society that is the humans in Nemesis yeah yeah exactly you
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know behave be pure be vigilant and and all of that you know and but it was what was around it was what was around at the
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time you know everybody stands on the shoulders of giants and Games Workshop didn't fully form the same thing as well
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you're saying about that art style is the fact that uh Kevin O'Neal drawing Nemesis it was all just pure black and
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white exactly pen you know very much pen style art and it you can see how it's you know it all it's all that that whole
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I think it's funny isn't it because I think to create the worst societies the most sort of despotic societies you need
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the people who are most Anti them sorts of societies to to reflect them in the mirror I think really don't you no
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absolutely and you know it's it's it's it's slightly tongueing cheek the the by line you see on the front of that book
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says how the Lincoln model raway and wargaming Society changed the world and it did change the world and what's the Lincoln model rway and wargaming Society
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it's where the 13 or 14y old Rick Priestley went with his mate Richard halwell cuz they were Lincoln School
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boys and the there was a model rway with the old boys doing train track upstairs and there were the war Gamers down
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downstairs and that's where they met out of that came Reaper which they published when they were 17 years old it was their
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first science fiction no the fantasy set of rules cuz they wanted to fight the Battle of uh helmy helmy and pelor
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Fields but there were no rules for it so they wrote their own and out of that they got both became involved in Citadel
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out of that came Warhammer out of that came 40K all of that imagery all of that they changed the world yeah but with
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with those books that's stuff that a lot of people probably won't even realize no because it's not been mentioned before
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pass I actually got a some someone in Lincoln some reporter got hold of this and he saying oh we should put a blue
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plaer it's not such a DFT idea nor is it really when you think about Workshop is
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just well as we know it's it's just unbelievable you know and
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it's well it's write a passage for most young LS and some these days isn't it I think I've seen blue plaques for Less so
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what I mean you know they've influenced so many youngsters and well all of us now and as a great force for good uh and
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uh um I mean what comes through in in the book
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is um is the wonderfulness of making it up as you go along Lish that happened
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there was nobody to follow because there was no no big games company and if you went to bank manager in 1982 said can I
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have a million pound I want to sell goblins you'd be you'd be marched out the bank very quickly I Su as a madman
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and uh and yes uh with Brian anel um who who's who is very highly praised
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throughout the book by all 17 people you will see with his vision about what he was trying to create uh uh he got these
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you this this bunch of Desperados together and made it all work but yes but there's no guy there's nothing to
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follow nowadays it's much easier to open up a games company and do things that's
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that's what I did cuz I can now see what's good what's cool what not to do broadly not saying we always get it
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right but but what's really cool and what and what's what what's Paramount and and workshop do that it was a and
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and you their two watch words are always fantastic quality Whatever Whatever It Takes has to be brilliant and then
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fantastic customer service which would have drummed into you over the years and all of us at gain's workshop and uh
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those two things came directly from Brian and his wife Dian Hansel they beat those into us very
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much though uh and it's carried through to Workshop me the quality again yeah but as you say though was sort of like
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starting on a wing of a prayer and and it just and it worked because that came across through with our interviews with
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Bob and both with Trish they both at times almost pretty much say we're
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stunned at where because it was just so you know so you know scatter shots not the right CH away but it was so random
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and but it man word but it that it managed to actually that it actually managed to they they you know they put
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the plane in the air but he also managed to land it as well and you know but but but also again it's important not to have Rose tinted Spectacles on that no
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some of it worked and one of the challenges of the Games Workshop at that time was was chasing up success some of
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it didn't work and some of the stuff that should have worked didn't work you know what didn't work dark future didn't
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work it was a brilliant idea I love the game to this day I I've got half a dozen copies still at home kind of but why
26:58
didn't it work we don't know it didn't work it didn't catch fire it didn't catch an audience it didn't sell so actually it was dropped and it was lost
27:03
from Lost from the range not everything worked all sorts of stuff were thrown out there you think it would because it
27:09
was that area of Mad Max and you know a lot of people are into that kind of stuff I I often think from my experience
27:15
of working in the studios and there something I'm very keen on doing is when I paint and play Toy Soldiers I try and
27:20
keep the scale the same I try and like make it interchangeable so if I do age of Sigma I do war cry and I I can do
27:25
like other Skirmish levels to those models battle Fleet Gothic and then dark
27:31
future like you have to like really commit to a very different game with a very different AET you can't use
27:37
anywhere else you can't but I mean dark future was done in that scale why because Corgi existed so a whole range
27:43
of dicast metal cars that you could stick guns and plastic bits on and so but if it was done now they would have
27:48
made all those things in 28 mil you didn't have the money to make those so that that's why you made it smaller and
27:55
the funny thing is there is a game isn't it gaslands which users the whole the whole idea is you just buy Hot Wheels
28:02
andt stick guns on them and and and it's landed now but couldn't land them such a shame and I think it's quite important
28:08
to understand both of those things because you know the company we were young men in a hurry just doing stuff
28:14
you know banging stuff out and trying stuff out and Jervis talks about this in interview as does Andy you know we just
28:19
throwing stuff out and if it's stuck then you chase it soas Titanic has went out and it stuck people like the game
28:25
and that was the first time that Workshop got it signature style adeptus was the first time we put models terrain
28:32
dice rules templates rulers in a box that was the first complete package and
28:38
whose decision was that that must have been Brian say we're going to go for this because wargaming at that point was you got a rule book from here and you
28:45
bought some models from over here and you got some actually plastic and you cut and made your own temp I mean it was
28:50
just a DIY business when I was growing up as a kid in the 60s and early '70s that's if you wanted to be in the war
28:56
game you had to do do DIY why Workshop came up with this idea of the package and they did that first in adeptus and
29:01
then they started following that you know dark future blood ball was the same package with the aster Granite uh when
29:07
it did the second edition and then by Warhammer fourth after the buyout in 90
29:14
and that first one with the High Elves and the Goblins even then no money so remember the uh oh the Sharpie pointed
29:19
spear go Sharpie point take you out health and safety Nightmare and and the
29:24
cardboard standup of The Rock lobber and the dragon cuz afford plastic we couldn't afford to do plastic and then
29:30
40K obviously followed that the year a couple years later that's going to answer a lot of questions because we I
29:35
used to see a lot of comments like why was it always like a carbo cut a dread yeah it makes sense really and again you
29:40
know let's go analog here because now all sculpting is digital back then sculpting was analog and I won't even go
29:46
into the detail of how that's done but you make a three up and then it has to be Pantagraph down hang on you're going
29:53
into the detail of it sorry John sorry John I'm a gobshite
29:58
I will talk for England good good that's why you're here talking minates things that don't necessarily work if when you
30:04
read Rick's GL Rick's glorious chapter in there Rick describes his conversation
30:09
with Brian when Brian says well science fiction games don't sell you know so even the boss wasn't always
30:16
right yeah no absolutely not there's an interesting bit in the book um that I'm aware of which you talk about Brian anel
30:22
as a lot of um ideas and you know we saying like you know don't always work there was like obviously music label
30:28
yeah records yeah that was a good plan my favorite store and I've heard it a few times when I was in the studio and Dave Andrews record it a few times um
30:35
was the paintball in in in the forest you can you talk I know there are other people probably best place to talk about
30:41
it because Robin tells a good story well I mean the story is Andy Jones's story because that actually happened just before I joined the company but actually
30:48
at that time you know late ' 80s 87 88 uh paintballs taking off and it was a cool idea and Brian went oh that's a
30:55
cool idea we could do something think with this dark future was out we were trying to get some traction with dark future to get some and so why don't we
31:02
do a dark future paintball make some money out of it and so there was a company called myth law that used to do
31:09
costumes for Games Workshop at the time you might have SE some photographs and they they did these kind big leather jackets with studs and spikes and horse
31:15
hair helmets and all of this stuff and so all of the studio staff and a lot of the sales staff piled into a couple of
31:20
coaches and Tom Kirby who wasn't the the the chief executive at the time but he's he had a a maiden who owned a bit of um
31:29
Woodland up in Yorkshire so they piled into these two coaches Brian handed out
31:35
pistols paintball guns on the coach this is this is going to work they headed up to these woods and started running
31:40
around in these Woods in Yorkshire shooting papb guns having a great time until they suddenly heard put down your
31:47
weapons put down your weapons and as Andy Jones tells it at that point he turned around and there was a guy with a
31:54
with a rifle covering him in a police uniform he goes oh is this part of it as well do I
31:59
sh how badly could that have gone do I shoot him and it was the South Yorkshire
32:05
armed Response Unit had turned up cuz somebody had said that two coach drivers have been captured by terrorists who
32:12
were running around in the these Woods um and so that the whole of the arm Response Unit turned up and they kind of
32:18
they kind of put down their weap Sor sorry Mr didn't mean to cause any trouble and actually they got away with it they weren't because they were on
32:24
private land they weren't they hand done anything bad they hadn't kidnapped two coach they had kidnapped two coach
32:30
drivers they weren't arrested for anything bad and it just became part of Games Workshop Legend it is a great part
32:35
of makes a great anecdote it's not the time I imagine because you could have lost half the studio if Andy kind I would say
32:41
acceptable [Music] casualties yes yes but Andy tells the
32:46
story very well I mean there you know there are some natural Rack onter in in G work up Andy being one of them so if
32:52
it did go bad you had one volume probably
32:58
maybe but I think for again for me uh researching this book talking to people
33:03
you know it was a joy I mean you know I got back in touch with Mike MC and SP to Mike for 15 to 20 years he used to live
33:08
in my house at one point um was just lovely did you ask him to live in your house or was he just there no he he just
33:14
said I need a room somewhere and I said well I've got a spare room come live in come live in my house and getting back
33:20
in touch with Mike was Joy but actually there were stories that we got told that I didn't oh and John and never got
33:26
really I didn't know that really well it's point of the book isn't it yeah and it's all in the book and it's all in the
33:31
book stuff that we NE I never knew and and for me you know one one of the most amazing conversation we had with John
33:37
and Rick and I got in John's motor we drove down to carbis Bay and Cornwall to meet Tony atland and we spent a night in
33:44
the pub with Tony atland as you might and then the next day we in a in a little kind of bed and breakfast hotel
33:49
we put the recorder on the table and Rick and Tony were there and John and I were almost in the background of that conversation Rick and Tony had seen each
33:55
other for a while these guys were the design studio way back in 1981 or 1982 Rick was
34:03
writing stuff an Tony was drawing stuff you remember Tony was illustrating all of the old Citadel cataloges in journal
34:09
with line drawings why are they line drawings analog because half Tony's difficult to produce so line line is
34:15
easy to to reproduce and Tony used to do 30 or 40 of those a day drawing the minist in front of him and these two
34:20
guys had this conversation it was fantastic listening to them reminisce about stuff and there's some great stories in there particularly Tony
34:27
talking about doing a cross-hatch sketch for the peris for a dragon and he just cross-hatched it because he's an artist
34:33
and he came back and the peris sculpted it with crosshatching and he said that was meant to be scales the per said yeah but you did
34:40
crosh hatches you little Git You know that was just me doing
34:45
cross-hatching that stuff that stuff was just so rich and so great and I'd never
34:50
heard any that and sure John Aden and we just we just loved it and we hope that people who buy the book and love the
34:56
book will enjoy it too sounds lots of gold gold information I'm going to ask
35:01
the question it's like picking a favorite child is there a particular chapter or person you chat to that was like this is a really fun story for me
35:07
personally John you have a go because I've been talking to much fun stories there's so many fun stories in there
35:12
though the the one which uh um the one that meant the most to me not not the
35:18
not the most entertaining yeah was the one done by by Paul Robbins who was the factory manager at Eastwood when G's
35:25
Workshop Consolidated everything up up into Eastwood and uh and it's um quite a
35:31
I think it's fair to say it was a bit of a rough town in those days had seen better days you said that
35:37
not I literally went through it the yesterday so yeah it's not and it was an X slightly quicker than normal and it it
35:44
suffered quite badly from all the closures and things and uh so it was picking trying to pick itself up and then we moved there uh Lock Stock and
35:51
Barrel and uh so we had to recruit all manner of um manufacturing staff and uh
35:56
um the studio was in in the Ivory Tower down in Nottingham uh and the people who
36:02
did all the work were in Eastwood and uh so we had to get to get all these various people to work
36:08
together and and Paul writes a beautiful chapter about recruiting these people who big casts big Burly casts who have
36:15
been Downes before going to say some be minors wouldn't they minor and it's their families it's their dad and son
36:22
mom and lad uh you she's doing the packing he's moving he's doing forlift
36:27
truck whatever it might be and it was a very tight a wonderfully tight um uh family you know and and everybody just
36:35
stepped up to the mark and did a great job and took a huge pride in doing and again that was Brian talking about
36:41
quality it's got to be right so they were quite rabid about it and then you know the and the customer service um you
36:48
you LS are too young to to to remember this but when I was a boy and dinosaurs stalk the Earth and if you if you read
36:55
uh if you had a magazine modeling magazine and said here's a new Zulu model it's 7 Shillings and six um here's
37:03
the address to write to uh send a check or a postal order no internet no phone
37:08
numbers no picture of it either because they can't be asked to do a picture of it because of what you were talking
37:13
about so you're sending off for this Zulu Warrior say that big and you know it's going to be good because you seen similar but you send off your check or
37:21
Postal order and it will say right at the bottom allow 28 days for delivery I mean when you 14 28 days 2 and half
37:28
years it's 2 and A2 years possibly more these days and and lo and behold in
37:34
about three and a half weeks something would come through your door badly packaged uh you know uh bashed about a
37:41
bit because they haven't put proper wrapping in there and that would come through and you think I really spent my seven Shillings and six on this and but
37:48
Brian way before his time said right mail orders coming in uh again no
37:54
internet so it's either telephone calls or normally letters big stack of letters would come through Rick Priestley used
38:00
to be my boss then so you say J you open up these you'd open up 30 letters uh and
38:05
in there would be photocopied um catalog Pages or sometimes our mail order sheets
38:11
which are all in there quite laughing some many you will remember those and people will will ring fence to say times
38:16
five or what five of those Orcs I think uh hard to tell and uh but they'll come
38:21
in Monday Morning Post they get that at half1 and Brian would say if you get them out by 5:00 today you know we'll go
38:27
to the pub and blly me go yeah there motivation so you you almost always turn
38:34
them out either the same day or always next day and uh and so sometimes if you
38:40
if it came in on a Monday the person who posted on a Saturday came in on the Monday they got it on the Tuesday if it
38:45
was first class post amazing well nowadays people wouldn't find that amazing but it was truly astonishing in
38:52
1982 it was like magic and people good God where's that come from and that was
38:58
that was Brian's Vision again and putting it in a nice white box with all those trolls all over it remember those
39:03
I've still got a box so much fun you know and that was great and the mail order mail order Department called the
39:09
mail order trolls in those days and they're proud to be a troll bit of a bit of a gag but the quality was all there
39:16
and uh and that's what that factory gave and uh it's a great chapter that's my favorite chapter I still remember the
39:21
skulls offer that was done for time and you had like different things you can collect depend how much money you spent sh you get like little skulls somewhere
39:28
at home I've got like a sheet that's got two skulls go reclaim at the workshop they're just going I I'm not sure what
39:34
you can get with two I think you need at least 10 to get some I had the uh the Space Marines that look like the where they copied them of putting the uh the
39:41
flag up atog I could never get any of them wrists to meet up with the arms
39:46
all what a little rubbish why are we praising them yeah
39:52
what I always remember talking about sending off for for Miniatures and that I got the amount of times I'd looked at it and never done it do you remember in
39:58
the back of um Marvel Comics you could buy complete Civil War ones those sets I always used to dream of those or the
40:05
second world war it's always been an entire German army versus an entire American Army in one book I've never
40:11
ever seen one I'd love to know what I can come in there I was obsessed with those despite not despite not buying
40:17
American Comics I considered them a bit crass uh but when people would show when I'd see those whole Army in a foot Foot
40:25
Locker that's right exploding tanks and exploding Bridges I think think that must be astonishing
40:31
even at eight you think no that can't really be exploding but you want it to be exploding and it' be $22 and you
40:38
think well I'm eight and I live in Glasgow how am I going to get $22 and give it to someone in Milwaukee and then
40:45
I look at it and it's a zip code now you have no idea what a zip Cod what's a zip code so I was dashed immediately and had
40:53
I gone to my parents they' say are you mad you know anyway anyway I have since seen these various sets oh and they even
40:59
worse than you thought they really the the disappointment level after waiting 28 days to one of these
41:06
they're mainly flat they were flat so they could come out the mold easy so flat models and the tanks were a
41:11
different scales scales all over over the place I'm so glad to never bought shocking but what you could do now is go
41:17
on eBay and buy one yeah there must be there oh I must have to have a look cuz that you you'll be so disappointed you
41:25
say yourself well thank you for the thank you for the warning just in
41:31
case so last thing on that however I will say kind another thing turning into
41:37
Robin now the warlord Gams have bought out all our our epic system I don't if you
41:43
napoleonics and American Civil War the American Civil War one was inspired by those lockers oh right and so that's
41:49
what I wanted a great big box with 2,200 Miniatures in yeah both armies blue and gray and I was inspired by those so
41:56
that's where we came from yeah that's cool that isol you just done a better job I think the one I think the one I
42:01
actually did learn from a back from Marvel comic and then finally got when we were on a day trip in Blackpool and was hugely disappointed with sea monkeys
42:07
when it turns out they they don't have little arms and legs and faces they're just Brian shrimp did you buy x-ray
42:14
specs as well yeah absolutely of course I've got some you want to buy some I still haven't seen a naked lady through
42:19
them but you never know she buy snake oil as well oh yeah got snake oil I've
42:24
got that much of it I could sell you some wrong didn't you have a story about someone wanting you to trim down the detail
42:30
minagers oh that was one of our Factory managers yes yes he came from the outside he didn't last long he came from
42:37
the outside didn't we we got a whole bunch of people came in from the outside to tell us how to do things properly
42:42
cleverly were they were proper people all very clever and the factory manager in in one of our first management
42:48
meeting said I've been thinking about these Miniatures do they have to be so
42:54
detailed yes because if you didn't put so much detail on them you know I could double the
43:00
output of these and I think well I'm sure you could but I had another great accountant who another accountant come
43:07
to save Games Workshop who said I've been looking through the range and your
43:12
best profit is on the Elder farer if you just sell a 100 times more of those
43:18
oh yeah you're not a gamer are you mate whole armies of far ear cuz it was5
43:25
model would have you know if you didn't put any ham in them ham sandwiches the price could come right down so your
43:30
margin would be great you charge for the ham but not deliver it may a bit of ham oil just
43:36
so bless amazing all of that yeah I I'm I'm
43:42
confess it now I had a customer service because we're talking about customer service in the back of the books and stuff and it was Gothic I I done a check
43:51
through postal order did a postal order so that I was even able to do that that time I was 13 14 I know I saved up my
43:57
money it was birthday money and I went for the battle Fleet Gothic set so you got the full set and you can get an extra little bit of Fleet with it so for
44:03
the chaos one sent it off heard nothing for weeks so I was like oh no it's not happened um so I rung up and said uh we
44:11
can't find it so be best to cancel your check so I canceled the check the very next day it turned
44:19
up I rung up and I said it's it's turned up cuz you know what we did we they told
44:24
us to go down to war world we went down to war they gave us a copy with the the stuff in and we went home the very next
44:29
day it turned up but it was the wrong Fleet it was the Imperial Fleet okay uh so I had both the chaos and the Imperial
44:35
fleets together and I was like I feel really bad to s m like don't tell him because M was always like don't tell
44:40
him these days and I I rung up and they just said don't worry about it keep it Fant that's why you never got your bonus
44:47
that year cuz I stole it even did but even then the customer service and I
44:53
I'll praise customer service even now because I know a lot the folks that work there and they just they they'll nail it and I had an issue even when I was
45:00
working in Workshop where something just didn't turn up and i' patiently waited more than a year for the thing to turn
45:05
up um it was it was a mate award it was 180 days you had to wait because it was like one of these art books that come
45:11
through and I'd kind of remembered but forgotten it had been like over a year um so I contacted they're like you been
45:18
quite patient uh and they they went above and beyond to to find to find a cop even though it was out of print but they managed to get one so yeah customer
45:24
service has never really changed I think it's always been a good thing I was just you I'm listening to that I'm just
45:30
reminded that crazy story and I think it's what your story but remember there was one of the retail chains and and the guy kind of came in a kid came into the
45:36
shop and he said look I bought these Miniatures and he opened the the Box you know a sliding box with a styrofoam tray
45:41
and a load of nuts and bolts in there and the manager went it was Pottery broken pottery it broken it was broken
45:47
pottery nuts and bolts and W that's really sorry I don't know what's going on here he said but you know we'll change that straight away and and then I
45:54
think another one turned up very very similar on similar shop and there was some kid who' obviously going into the
45:59
shop opening the box taking it home putting some bits of broken pottery in his dad had access to a shrink wrap
46:05
routin he was re re shrinking the box coming in either asking for a refund and saying look I've already got these my my
46:11
my my auntie bought me these but I've got them can I change them for something else so so the store manager it could
46:17
rattle but it was Terminators they were the hot ones at the time it's 20 as well W so you'd rattle it and it sh WRA think
46:23
well that's you know that's terminated that's complete yeah yeah blooming Pottery unfortunately you know we'd
46:28
always said always believe the customer always believe the customer and fortunately we did and just gave him a
46:33
new box but there was someone there so I guess the ones that would get open in it were actually the innocent party here
46:39
completely innocent here someone else was re shrink taking the Miniatures out and shrink
46:45
wrapping it and taking the Box my time in retail there was a time where there were people casting them out of plaster
46:50
yeah plaster yeah so I was like someone came in and said oh I brought this miniature um and it's broken
46:56
and I was obviously in customer service mode it was a ring wraith and they're like it's just broken really weird and I
47:02
don't understand it and I open it and I looked it was like just plaster it was like plaster of Paris so it was a fake a
47:08
fake miniature yeah yeah what they've done someone had made a mold yeah of a ring wraith so two part mold and then
47:14
just pour plaster into it paint it all and then uh try to at first I was just
47:19
like I was really confused then then it happened a couple of times I was like ah they're trying to pull a fast one AR they it started to happen really I think
47:25
think in I mean after the buyout in 91 when Tom took over the company and it became a public company and started to
47:32
expand really rapidly under John's kind of sales leadership you know the retail chain started to expand rapidly and then
47:37
France came online and Germany and Italy you know sales started to really reboot really boom and a lot of money started
47:43
to flow into the company um that's when we started to first see serious counterfeiting and stuff coming in know
47:49
with blister packs with Miniatures that were clearly remolds from recasts watch in from Turkey I remember turkey that's
47:55
remember tracking them down me me and Ronnie Renton went into a store Germany
48:01
there a store in Germany which was selling these dodgy Miniatures and um whilst I distracted the shop owner
48:08
Ronnie nied nipped into the back and tore off an address label from Istanbul of one of the delivery necks so that's
48:13
how we tracked them down you've just reminded me yeah because it these ring race were coming
48:19
in on they' obviously taken the metal ones out and then put the plaster one in and together so it looked like yeah yeah
48:26
yeah that that's and that started to happen a lot in the late '90s didn't it yeah I remember you I I was a manager at
48:31
the time when you were head of like oh yeah absolutely I was found you to be
48:36
the most sensible room in uh sensible room in the voice sensible voice in the room um because we used to do lots of um
48:42
like manager meetings and stuff like that you used do lot presentations and stuff that was till the manager meeting in London where someone had the good
48:48
idea of hiring two open top buses and G all the managers water pistols and they're driving around London one called
48:55
G one called Mor having a running having a running water thing you know until the
49:00
police got involved guns G for guns man they were only water pistols but you
49:07
traded down from paint guns to it would have been funny if the guy one of the cops who tracked you down i' used to work for the
49:15
York again it was it I mean back in that it was Anarchy at times it was Anarchy
49:22
and and but a beautiful kind of deter in focused kind of Anarchy but it was
49:28
Anarchy so if you don't mind I'm going to jump onto some Pat but first of all before I do that um you're way can you
49:33
buy this yeah you can buy that you can get it uh direct from us I mean Shaggy Dog publishing is basically we John and
49:39
I set up a company to publish this good name so we we said so John Shaggy Dog publishing is John and I it's got two
49:45
directors we have share capital of 2 pound because we wanted to publish the book ourselves and get it out there so
49:51
that's so we said up chug dog publishing so you can get it straight from us at talking miniatures.com UK or Amazon in
49:57
the UK or amazon.com in America Fant at our retail store here retail store here
50:03
nice to see the villains are actually on the back of the book well the villains on the back on the on the sexy slip case
50:08
there's all of the villains that are in the book and each volume has different group of people on it he plans to do other volumes down the line it kind of
50:15
depends how this goes I mean what's been brilliant for me at the moment is actually the response from people you
50:21
know and I say I have this uh we have a Facebook group called talking Miniatures that I I Minister where people just come
50:26
in it's an open it's an open Facebook group just to talk about the book and Miniatures and since it was first
50:32
launched it's just been fantastic hearing other people's stories I was telling you early about the Norwegian guy that you know remembers going to the
50:38
plaza when he was a kid and going out two shopping bags for of stuff and he's bought a copy of the book and just said book's wonderful what what face and and
50:44
getting that feedback from people is worth more than anything to me that justifies the five years because it
50:49
meant that what John and I wanted to do has has struck a cord with people and that's just fantastic do you know what I
50:55
like is the fact that Andy Chambers on that back of that book although he's changed quite a lot from the old white dwar photograph he still pulls exactly
51:01
the same POS which is slightly offer an angle looking upwards amazing yeah yeah used to have
51:07
massively big High hair and a really quite side was his ly look was he was yeah abely right he was in his mid mid
51:14
late 80s early 90s still got more people like now since doing this that you in the wings that you could now contract
51:20
down to do a third there are I mean people keep asking are the people that we would love to have talked to yes they were um some of them were working for
51:28
Games Workshop and we' have loved to have talked to those but we couldn't because they're Bound by confidentiality some people we approached and they were
51:34
a bit kind of not not sure not sure I'm not going to name names on that one because that would be unfair and unreasonable you know you mentioned Dave
51:40
Andrews earlier I would love to get conversation da Andre but we can't get him because just I mean Dave's history
51:45
of the company and what Dave has done is just awesome I mean we're in a similar boat really with Dave aren't we we were
51:50
desperate to have him on the show exactly so there are lots of people that we' like to catch people to retire well
51:57
people I mean we were luy we were lucky we were lucky to get Jervis we got Jervis in August he just retired in that
52:03
July and he got down obviously John blanch has um left now he's retired uh I
52:09
saw jez a couple of weeks ago because it was Andy Jonesy's birthday and jez was there and I saying to jez jez I'd love
52:15
to talk to you jez Ali Morrison I'd still like to get Dave Gallagher as another because Dave's artwork is part
52:21
of that seminal period again I mean there are lots of people should there be a volume three we had a book signing
52:26
here on the warlord open day and we had alesio cavor and he was saying I he said I think you should do talking Miniatures
52:32
the Next Generation so alesio cavor Thomas pinin those who' been there after
52:39
this and now left as well you know these are the old gits this is the first generation but the second generation's
52:44
there and and is there another book in us there might be I think we need to know if this strikes Accord with people
52:49
we'll only know that partly through feedback obviously people buy it and we get sales then we'll kind of go maybe
52:56
it's worth doing another one maybe it's doing I mean it's nice as a what I call a coffee table book because books
53:02
information on the internet like listen to audio books and like audio chats and stuff like that it's nothing as the same
53:08
as having a book in your hand people said to me are you going to do an ebook and I just said no I'm really old and I
53:14
really like books and I like the physical quality of a book and the smell of a book when it's new and we
53:20
deliberately did it you know A4 size so it will sit on your shelf along side
53:26
slash of Darkness amazing 40K Warhammer role play Warhammer fancy B pure
53:31
coincidence pure Co we didn't plan that of course but that's where it sits and we wanted something that was beautiful
53:37
yeah and that's why we did two volumes we thought it's 500 page we do a single volume it's really hard to bind without
53:43
it cracking and splitting and you can't kind of hold it on your lap cuz it's a big [ __ ] heavy thing we think do two
53:49
volumes put it a nice slip case bug of the expense cuz that slip case actually costs more than each of those oh really
53:55
yeah yeah well because this is really complex cardboard engineering I won't go into the details but you can't do the
54:01
slip case until you printed the books because you don't know the weight of the paper and then it's got to be able to
54:06
grip the books what they're in but not so tight that they la la DET you can see I did this for a living
54:13
I can't help it I can't help it but I like the way you warn that you're not going to and then too well I'm not going
54:19
to and then I can't help myself cuz I'm sorry fellas but it's all right well if
54:24
you the podcast it's a bit similar so uh we just wanted something that was beautiful that that people would
54:32
treasure and keep and go I love that I love that book and go back to it time and time again and never lend it to
54:38
their mate yeah oh yeah if you didn't get by your own so so people say is there going to be an e booking at now
54:46
heresy that's fair but fair don't sit on the
54:52
fence I'm a preface some of these questions our our patreon community bleep that you can bleep that don't
54:58
don't bleep it leave it in leave it in our Patron Community is a bit odd like us uh so we might have some odd questions Rel about your favorite we'll
55:05
do our best we'll do our very best um I think this one's more aimed at you John um if you could design a mini range or
55:11
anything not taken into account IP laws Etc if you could make a specific Army faction what would it be the examples
55:17
here are like the Firefly range of TV show stuff is it a game system that
55:22
you've wanted to hook into that you not quite got I'd like to have done Star Wars properly yeah yeah I'm not a Star
55:29
Wars fan at all because I I don't really like Star Wars apart from the the shooty
55:34
bits with Walkers and things are fantastic but the stuff that's come out has underwhelmed me oh and uh shall
55:41
we say and you know and I'd doing big battles of Star Wars properly would be
55:47
great would you be talking like more 28 mil 28 not not epic scale or anything like that man siiz man SI see good I'm
55:54
I'm there 15 mil I'm not into I think I've got one of the test
55:59
test um models that uh Games Workshop made years ago in my yeah Bob talked
56:04
about that which is lovely so I look at him go if only Space Marines are better
56:12
so uh we got two questions uh one for each of you from TY branding okay Robin do magazines like white dwarfs still
56:18
have a place in today's media landscape oh that's very clever question uh yes
56:23
they do yes they do for the same reasons that they always did it's different obviously back in the day there was no
56:29
internet if you into Games Workshop if you're into the hobby if you're into toy so just you got a copy of white DWF and it was sexy and exciting and you know we
56:35
used to sell 120,000 copies a month um in the media landscape I think they have a they they have a life for the same
56:42
reason I still buy magazines because of of things I'm interested in because I like I like the tangible physical
56:49
quality of them it's not the same on my phone it's not the same on my iPad it just doesn't it now I'm old my kids live
56:58
in that digital world yeah yeah that's the world they live in and I don't see them buying magazines in the same way
57:05
but I think magazines it's the problem is actually then the cost of production the cost of production cost of
57:10
distribution and all of the rest of those costs because you got to sell a lot we were selling a lot of white doors in the day you know say
57:17
120,000 each issue in five languages in across all continents of the world but I
57:23
think they do I like mag I like tangible physical things know I've still got next to my desk all of the white dos all St
57:32
lined up and I really like them and I'm part of a Facebook group called whitew Through The Years 1975 and the guys
57:38
there I for me it's it's a kind of a joy I I will stop speaking in a minute but stuff that I did 30 years ago now people
57:47
are still talking about and that's not about my ego it's just that people love them people talk of the early battle
57:52
reports light up Craft World versus the the blood angels that stuff and you can't imagine how hard what hard work it
57:59
was to produce that but people still love it and would they still love it if it was just a digital if it was pixels n
58:06
sorry slight Sidetrack didn't you do the first battle report for white dwarf yes I did yes I thought you did yes I did my first battle report was actually before
58:12
I worked for the company I was a youth worker in London used to run a a youth center in southeast London and I course
58:18
I used to play Warhammer with the kids and d and d and one of the kids said to me why don't we do a Warhammer game for
58:24
your um children in need it was the kind of first temps teson and so we got open the youth club Friday night got all
58:30
these kids in stayed up all night playing Warhammer until Sunday morning
58:36
and I wrote it up as a battle report and sent it to White DWF and it got published and that's what that was part that was part of the reason I got a job
58:41
at Workshop because I I'd been published in white dwarf and so the first battle report was the Battle of Carrick Mound I think it was Issue
58:48
11 11 109 something like that and then a couple of months later I saw an ad for games developers uh editors and I went I
58:55
can do that yeah and you did going back to your um uh what would
59:01
you like to make as a as a faction is what they'll call in these days which drives me mad as a thing but an army an
59:07
army factions for God's sake uh but uh one of the good stories from the 1970s
59:13
there was a company called Tempo Miniatures which probably before your time they used to make 54 mm plastic
59:20
Cowboys and Indians Crusaders uh World War II stuff uh with swappable parts so
59:25
you could swap out the guns and swap it swap it well yeah yeah swap it and and
59:30
it was all very cool for children's toys uh but they were quite nicely sculpted and they uh they're uh they had a sales
59:39
meeting for the what they're going to do next year and the their uh their boss came very excited because he had secured
59:45
a a license which in 1970s would be quite cool licensing wasn't really done for toy soldiers that sort thing and uh
59:52
he says he said well what have you got so he said well I've got in here in this box I got some mockups of what we're
59:58
going to be bringing out and drum roll and they bought out these fantastic
1:00:03
looking um Captain Scarlet models Captain Captain Scarlet Captain black
1:00:09
looking really cool painted up and he said you know we got the license to produce these the sales guy
1:00:17
said what about the baddies yeah absolutely that was immediately where my mind went was yes unfortunately there
1:00:23
are no baddies yes cuz they're myons who are best represented by two
1:00:29
torches so other F at least that one so I won't do that
1:00:35
it was a bit like that with a lot of Jerry Anderson stuff was like that wasn't it because the UFO TV series you've seen the UFOs but you never seen
1:00:40
you was flying the could have been fantastic see the B guys please yeah absolutely right yeah the fish men were
1:00:46
great though instin great they were good it's true uh and
1:00:51
those and those fish me those fish s submarines brilliant this is question for you John
1:00:57
is pretty much similar to the last one we asked so uh I won't ask that which is which IP would you turn into a table top
1:01:02
war game Star Wars there you are and make it better apparently um oh right okay uh bear with
1:01:11
me go uh hi both question how do you feel about the peppery deliciousness of Haggis pakora follow up why is the
1:01:18
Haggis borus human Humanities finish Fusion food would you we'll move on
1:01:25
I no idea where that was left at the light sometimes but that's really left at the light turn back Pak you want to
1:01:32
talk about haggas to Robin he's a he's a veggie he wouldn't be able to comment on no I mean I've tasted haggas in the past
1:01:38
but I can't recall I've tasted veggie haggis but I think I think it's for breakfast from what I understand uh one
1:01:44
for you John any plans for more Romanian units for Vault action Romanian funly
1:01:50
enough we were just talking about it the other day one of the lads in the store was talking about uh making he's writing
1:01:57
an article on it and he's talking about he's talked exactly about which plastic box set to combine to get another four
1:02:03
Romanian units um but it'll be coming up on our website so there are some plans
1:02:09
and the the apparently they used a lot of those Adrienne helmets uh which are the French pan helmets and as we're just
1:02:15
releasing the French ones that'll free up U models to to do more Romanians
1:02:21
fantastic uh favorite uh biscuit to go tea for both of you if you drink tea
1:02:26
Garibaldi Garibaldi hold holds its moisture when I
1:02:32
mean traditional mode digested but you know radical is fig
1:02:37
roll do use that as like a
1:02:42
straw I like fig rolls but yeah fig rolls are God's biscuits I can
1:02:47
eat a packing are surprisingly good yeah there are some biscuits that yeah the pack
1:02:53
isn't big you don't open that pack cuz it's is crack cocaine you definitely have to go and
1:02:59
like tone down on the sugar after that one there's been a few comments or questions about fighting in car Parks
1:03:04
I'm going to it seems to be I'm going to ask you about this when you guys left so when I left I apparently I had a fight
1:03:10
in the car park you had a fight in the car park I didn't but that seems to be like the story yeah I heard that Duncan had the same thing and many of us when
1:03:17
they've left have all had the same did you guys ever get anything like that oh the reason why John stard left was cuz he had a fight in the car park with such
1:03:22
and S did you get any like weird Rumor Mill things when you left such as fights in the car park be
1:03:30
chested over to Robin I have no idea I have no idea I I mean I've never heard it from when I was in the studios so you
1:03:37
know Games Workshop is a genius company to to to work for and I had 23 fantastic
1:03:44
years there and one year that was kind of slightly miserable yeah which was my my final year but you have to know that
1:03:50
when you walk out of Games Workshop the door's shut and that's it yeah yeah you don't yeah because it's so focused on
1:03:56
the future and moving forward it has no time to look back which is Again part of the joy of us looking back is because
1:04:03
that's where it's focused and so no I just I just had a conversation that said we think that we come to the end here's
1:04:09
some money go away go away nicely yeah I said thank you very much fellas it's been fantastic 24 years bye for now yeah
1:04:16
and walked out and I didn't go back for a year yeah but then I went back to bugman's and had a coffee in bugman's a
1:04:22
year after I left I had a fantastic time oh it's really nice to see you and actually you connect back with people
1:04:28
who in that in that way and also you find there's a Wonderful World outside of Workshop friends and buddies and
1:04:33
people you know which I've certainly discovered yeah well obviously yeah you what a great what a great question yeah
1:04:39
um I can't think of anything about me but when I when you do meet up with old
1:04:44
buddies and you go out for a beer and the stories start coming out the things you don't know thank God I mean I was you being a
1:04:51
fairly senior manager at the time and now these guys telling you what they were doing and you think oh for God God
1:04:58
I didn't know that at the time thank you for not telling me then yeah exactly blood RS cold when you think about it
1:05:04
now but uh but yeah we try not to put those ones in the yeah no so no no no
1:05:10
fights in the car par I have no idea what they said about me after I left probably for the emperor yeah I mean you
1:05:17
will get that is a great question but um as we said many times it's like it's like leaving the family of Downtown
1:05:22
Abbey isn't it it's like you've left the family on our Black Sheep don't return yeah is it I go back all the time go to
1:05:28
bugman like you yeah I go I go to bugman and I have a really nice time and you know I left the job not the people is
1:05:34
the way I see exactly that's why looking at definitely um this one's for you Robin have you had to reject any
1:05:40
Publications for white dwarf reject any you know tight deadline
1:05:46
you're there and you're like suddenly like no this can't go out have you ever had that situation during your tenure no
1:05:51
white DWF had to go out whitewolf had to go out I mean you know
1:05:58
I'm not kidding Paul when when I you know Paul and I have a really interesting conversation Paul saw you because he followed me really I mean
1:06:04
there was internum with interum is a bit of a bony word isn't not let's cut that out there was a gap when there was a gap
1:06:10
when Jake Thornton with edisa for a while and then Paul took over and we have a really interesting conversation about white off and actually one of the
1:06:16
things that Paul said people say to him how you know how long does it Tak to make a white dwarf and Paul go do the maths it's a monthly
1:06:23
magazine comes out once a month yeah but how long does it take uh ier you've got
1:06:28
21 days yeah really 21 days certain back in those days you had 21 days to get 60
1:06:35
to 84 Pages done and then you know week at Repro printers distribution blah BL
1:06:41
you lost a week you got 21 days and actually do we reject St no some I mean we didn't have many external submissions
1:06:47
in those days we occasion got us external submissions and we if they were great we'd use them that's how Thomas
1:06:52
pinin came into the business Thomas was writing stuff about Warhammer in Finland and Paul Sawyer spotted him first
1:06:58
because he was working on troll magazine over at the at Citadel the journal and
1:07:03
he got he got Thomas in and he had him for a while and then he found me up and said I've got this guy I think he's a
1:07:08
bit bigger than what I've got you might want to look at him for white dwarf and that's how Thomas pin came into the business but no uh rejecting
1:07:16
stuff I can't we had a lot of work to do each month and part of my job white DF editor
1:07:25
was going around the studio and saying what have you got yeah what have you got going to the heavy metal team saying
1:07:31
guys what have you got you know obviously they were given so the new releases they had to be painted up they had to go in white dwarf uh battle
1:07:37
report went without saying every month we had to have a battle report once battle reports became the core of the magazine other stuff they were adverts
1:07:44
or promos and and then there was just kind of cool hobby stuff you know there's a series that Rick and I did
1:07:50
called uh how to make a Warhammer building out of a cornflake packet of scissors and some PVA glue people
1:07:57
people kept saying oh terrain's really complicated complicated and so we said here are cornflake packet scissors PVA
1:08:04
make a building and we did that and and so those were the things that I kind of remember were exciting but they they weren't scheduled they were just stuff
1:08:11
and we were just try and accumulate stuff in the background say okay we got a get six page Gap in this issue in it
1:08:17
goes yeah and that's what we did terrain articles and that kind of stuff so no we never rejected anything in that way I
1:08:23
was remember going into the last week of the month with white dwarf and you can see they're all stressed so it was
1:08:29
always like the week after that it'll be chilled the start well I have to say back in the 90s my wife used to say that
1:08:35
she was the only man I knew with a monthly cycle is one well there was one week a month when
1:08:43
I would just growl at everybody it's like stressy you've got to get it out you got to get out you got
1:08:49
to get out the door yeah um Andy H he's got two questions I'm going to pick the second one do you have any employees
1:08:54
that don't collect historicals and how long has it taken you to break them we've got a strong card of people
1:09:02
who play historicals here um but uh but I don't I think they all have their
1:09:08
secret Space Marine armies don't you worry just just just waiting for them to
1:09:14
come back out yeah you know you can't get rid of your mines can you no
1:09:19
absolutely not I've still got loads in the Attic more to the pity of my wife cuz she needs that space for other stuff
1:09:25
uh how is that lanch neck Army kit so good uh would love backstory to that line that's from Burley um I've only
1:09:32
seen the set that you've got downstairs LS are lovely they were designed by um two Games Workshop by Games Workshop
1:09:39
designer finally enough I forgotten his name damn damn damn he left and did them for us but they're lovely scops they are
1:09:44
yeah uh and uh I wish you do more for me yes but lch there's a new book coming out for the lanch neck for black powder
1:09:51
so there will be a whole book on lanch neck exent amazing yeah because they're a mercenary Army aren't they yeah yes
1:09:57
mercenary armies yeah they were fight against everybody particularly against the Swiss so huge pike fighting very
1:10:04
unpleasant yeah is that why they have the big zi handers smash through those Pikes uh Andy's asking this another
1:10:10
question he's greedy he's gone for three today um but it's it's a bit of a lighthearted one with all the lovely
1:10:16
historicals you produced you have any shares in the carpet tile manufacturer line you must be propping up uh a lot of
1:10:21
heavily textured carpet tile businesses across the UK I guess for gaming
1:10:27
tiles I think that's where it was going yeah I think we probably are should get
1:10:32
some shares in it should get some shares in it I know Dave uses towel and like rugs and stuff like that I'll give you a
1:10:38
piece of information which nobody else knows oh I like this if they are now well I haven't told him yet I might not
1:10:45
um one of uh our Pal's Chuck called Simon Tiff who used to work at G workshop and warlord he uh used to be on
1:10:53
on the buying uh department at wios who unfortunately just gone bus but for
1:10:58
years you know borrow wios and I was in one of their meetings uh and their head
1:11:03
buyer was chatting to them going through the pricing structure and everything and she said well it say and then is very
1:11:09
dry meeting and barcodes and everything and pricing and she said uh it's green
1:11:15
scrubbing uh pads you know the green which you do your dishes with and she
1:11:20
says yes and we want them in the traditional green no other color and Simon said why green and she says
1:11:27
well she says a lot of War Gamers cut them up and use them for Hedges you wow and that's why they gree and for the
1:11:35
head buyer to tell Simon that was great I think you'll find market she didn't know he was a
1:11:41
wargamer so that was particularly amusing s probably had one their mental fist mental fist bump moments yes yes
1:11:47
they do make great Hedges they did no I mean that the war games terrain book that came out probably during like the
1:11:52
era that you were running white dwarf actually um is such a good source of information like just making Hedges out
1:11:58
of folding over some scaring pads on top yeah it's just it goes back to what you
1:12:04
say about the uh you know games playing being a war game was DIY isn't it it was I tell you what I a month ago I can't
1:12:11
remember that kind ofen maybe mon month or six weeks I went to boil you know bring out your lead the ANS run over at
1:12:16
their place and I walked in through the door and on my right hand side it was huge table huge table covered with epic stuff you know Titans and and tanks and
1:12:23
on that table they had little minefields Barbed wireing placements and those
1:12:29
little bunkers made out of a a Cavalry base as the r slot and that was an article that I wrote in white dwarf 30
1:12:36
years ago with Andy Chambers about Minefield barb wire and bunkers in Epic and of course the the barbed wire you
1:12:43
get caresh and you cut it on the diagonal and then you spiral it around a Ben and make little bar wi things and I
1:12:49
looked at this and I and the guy looked at me and I went brother I've seen this for 30 years he said look I've got the
1:12:54
article here it was just really great and we had this whole conversation and then he said to me he said you know the
1:13:00
bar wi is great he said but there's no rules Here For What happens when the tank drives over the bared wire I went oh no we missed it we missed
1:13:07
the how do you remove them from the tabletop yeah and it was great it's that that for
1:13:14
me that stuff even that a lot of those skills from that stuff is still relevant today bar wire thing absolutely how' you
1:13:19
make barbed wire all that St all of that you know conflict in the Paris yeah it's terribly satisfying isn't because also
1:13:26
means you can involve kids and things like that you could you get your daughter or your son and say come on you you don't know what you're building but
1:13:32
let's build a house today of course it's a bunker is what it is but you get them involved and slapping paint on and it's
1:13:38
just a great join in isn't it it is and uh shame you can't get bendy plastic straws here because you don't get
1:13:44
Plastics there bendy plastic straws for necr the tin can and all the PIP all
1:13:50
that was really cool that little bit you just pull out and it goes around perfect it's just all of that all 40K refineries
1:13:57
were built with a a Bendy straw exactly and and I kind of I really love that DIY
1:14:03
aspect of the old terrain building you know I mean the the new terrain the plastic injection M terrain great but
1:14:08
it's it's still like making stuff it's not for me I like making [ __ ] uh Alex Austin is asking with the focus on
1:14:14
historical gaming and potentially the best kit the lanch neck double solders
1:14:19
do you reenact at all do you guys do any re used to when I was from 18 50 um um
1:14:25
English of War uh running newcastle's T show the finest and big biggest T show on the
1:14:31
field so 30 years of fantastic fun fantastic was it all just that period
1:14:36
that you did during the pretty much yeah beating people up legally was absolutely hilarious in fact
1:14:43
in some early white dwarves there are adverts for your yeah for my old regim for your looking for recruits they're
1:14:49
still around the regiment's still around so Gilbert Horton's company of foot fine body of
1:14:55
men um as it informed air product development as well that kind of stuff the other thing about that
1:15:02
American Civil War box set other than the Foot Locker um was I won't go into
1:15:09
detail um give us some more details I was watching I was watching a battle reenactment in America of Americans ofil
1:15:16
war and it was one of the huge when they had 10,000 people on the field and I was watching these regiments coming forward
1:15:21
blue blue coated Union so as they came forward they probably had 200 men in each block so it was pretty
1:15:27
pretty good you know good and I was thinking what's difference there and I'm looking at them I think what's different
1:15:33
to that and wargaming why does that look fantastic and it was because it was just
1:15:39
a wall of blue I suddenly realized that when you people always because War Gamers most of us are a bit mean um we
1:15:46
space out our models with a gap in the middle and when you look at a group of Union Soldiers
1:15:52
they literally were pressed elbow to elbow and that's what you have to do and red coats and everything else so you got your first rank 100 men wide and then
1:15:59
you got a second rank anyway so if there if there was a gap all you still see is blue that's where the Epic stuff came
1:16:05
from I wanted to actually show that's what would look coming towards you see any gaps at all apart from their
1:16:10
casualties yes but to begin with that wouldn't so that's where that one came from from retive I think the uh I think
1:16:16
the invention of fragmentation was what put an end to that stand standard that close to each
1:16:21
other yes know when I used to spend a lot of time walking across the countryside in the
1:16:27
mil in the military we walked in diamonds so the Hope was the grenade landed in the middle and no one got
1:16:34
it yeah fragmentation and solid shot it's not very yeah amazing uh asking me
1:16:40
about my reenacting I do War the roses with with the Andrews uh so there you go
1:16:46
it's not Gothic or millanes I'm afraid uh great name hick dead to everyone what do you do when you buy shoes and what
1:16:53
have you dead Hang On Let's uh let's let's skip to the end a little bit uh or do
1:17:00
you attempt the chaos Gods you know what sorry mate sorry this the one that was to do with laces it's something to do
1:17:05
with laces uh and I I'm moving on because he was mentioned just answer uh
1:17:11
to John with uh this is from Matt Lumley with Warlords focus on historicals rather than fictional conflicts uh has
1:17:16
there ever been a particular period of history that they there was a desire to replicate on the tabletop but the business side made it uh unviable
1:17:24
um also W one 28 mil please thank you those are great great questions 28
1:17:30
mil um uh we nearly did a World War I that think that would obviously been uh
1:17:36
kind of late War 1917 18 where by the time tanks were tanks and movement was back in not just the horrible trench
1:17:43
warfare so we nearly did that we didn't uh sometimes though you can pick a period which you wouldn't think would
1:17:50
sell terribly well uh uh but if you build it and they will come so I had this obsession with motor torpedo boats
1:17:57
I don't know why oh I had to to one of them as a kid they cool I think it was because they were in Victor comic it was
1:18:04
kill killer Kennedy was his name and joyle his liutenant and they sank more German battleships than were ever
1:18:10
built and and I always wanted to make this game with with most torpedo boats and my wonderful Studio would always say
1:18:17
yes great idea and then put it to the bottom of the schedule say yeah we'll put put it
1:18:23
in if we got time yeah yep put it in then slip it off the schedule another year so three years goes past I think
1:18:29
wait a minute you should be at the top of the schedule now after three years something's a foot so I so I sort of
1:18:36
sold the game to them again they went okay I said you it doesn't have to have an extensive tail just plastic motor
1:18:43
torpedo boats you just German ebo and a British MTB and so they let me have it and and it it went really well and U
1:18:51
it's still being sold and that 10 years on now amazing but so it was a builder and they will come CU most people didn't
1:18:56
know they'd love model boats but we put the model boats we put a frame on the front of War Games Illustrated yeah and
1:19:02
so that that squirts 15,000 of them into the world yes there's not a war gamer in the world who won't think oh well at
1:19:09
least I'll glue it together and think ooh just spray that up and before you know it think oh I might get a box of
1:19:15
those play and off they go and build it and they will come yeah so and you wrote
1:19:21
the rules for that I did marvelous game what's that game called
1:19:26
again available Cru Seas Cru Seas what a great name as well still are good names
1:19:33
yeah that's good uh David Norman are there any art books or miniature art collections Etc that you turn to for
1:19:38
inspiration or standout over the years or standouts over the years um I guess
1:19:45
there's Dave Taylor stuff always blows me away yeah Dave Taylor stuff is
1:19:51
cool um yeah I'm trying I'm trying to picture Dave Taylor stuff I recognize the name um he's just put a whole load
1:19:58
of books on uh historical based stuff no no mainly F many fantasy and science
1:20:03
fiction he used to work for for Workshop Australian Australian austr boy Australian boy now in America I think he
1:20:10
did a a black and white drawing of um chaplain on bike years ago that's probably why I recognize the name he was
1:20:16
very good with his guns is that right he I don't know about that but any as in like drawing like any detail stuff is
1:20:23
fantastic um other ones Inspirations um it's hard to say but I mean art books
1:20:29
you know I go back to the early some of the early Workshop stuff you know the Ian Miller and the Blan stuff from that that period I also really like the peris
1:20:36
stuff that's at the lead Royal armories you know if you want some spectacular visual stuff their water stuff at their
1:20:42
Dias their diamas that peris have gotten the RO lead yeah yeah very and actually
1:20:48
there is the what's the guy's name I've been a couple of times with Rick to the Chelsea Army museum in Chelsea there's
1:20:54
the sorn model cyborn yeah cbor modor cbor there's a guy called sorn who made
1:20:59
a model you know with after the battle of watero he made a model of the battle of watero and he cast up all the
1:21:06
Miniatures there t look mini SE seen that in the FL and and it's in it's in the and I've been a couple of times to
1:21:11
see that and of course he made this Fantastic Model and you know this is an era where there's no films there's no TV
1:21:16
there's no you know they moved around the country and um he used to show it off but the problem was of course he got
1:21:23
in trouble with it cuz when um Duke of Wellington became the prime minister in
1:21:29
the cbor model he has the prussians arriving and people were going Oh look The prussians have turned up and hit the
1:21:34
French in the flank and it and uh there was this whole argument about when did the prussians actually arrived across the Duke of Wellington well that's not
1:21:40
the way it was yeah okay and and he died in penury but it's a fantastic model and
1:21:46
it's there in the Royal Army museum in chelse and I love to go and see that yeah worth looking out for that when you
1:21:52
go to the Royal Army then not the Royal Army yeah the Chelsea Army Chelsea Army museum he did a second one which is D in
1:21:59
a larger scale of the of the uh Duron
1:22:04
coring swacked by the Scots gra and that is at the Army at uh at leads leads two
1:22:12
the bit Army museum I know from that that's where um the M back gun is from uh the uh the SAS Trooper
1:22:20
um5 where he fired it on his own for God knows how long yeah three-man job yeah and of course the problem with the cybor
1:22:26
model as well is he went he actually did a topographic survey of the land of Battle of water and then he went to talk to all the commanders and said you know
1:22:32
what were you doing on there oh my lad were in the front of the fighting of course he will so nobody said oh we sat around all day did did booger
1:22:39
all it's one of them battles where no one was at the back no it was we were there we were staring into the French
1:22:46
bayet the front as well exactly and that's the way it went so but it's it's a beautiful model if
1:22:51
you're ever in that neck of the woods and it's an inspir I find it still inspiring I I always my my like go hod
1:22:58
of GRA when I was really young was going to Bosworth Visitor Center and seeing that little display what I really liked was they had large scale at the front
1:23:04
and they got smaller scale as it went further back and I always used to love looking at that I didn't know nothing about they wore the roses at that time I
1:23:11
just lights in nights and that was copied of course that was copied if you'd go to white dwarf in those early years when um epic came out I think
1:23:17
Chris coulston who was the photographer um back then he set up some pictures with Space Marines in front some epic
1:23:24
Space Marines in back and use that Force perspective and there's some really cool pictures that he did back then that are
1:23:29
in dwarf yeah just getting that sense of scale is really good and nowadays I guess with all the different scales of Miniatures that are out there you know
1:23:35
fix tricks do 54 mil neic so you could work your way down from thing is with
1:23:41
digital you can trick anybody it's just it don't work anymore then it was Hardcore again we're talking the book
1:23:47
about you know back in those days you want smoke effect no Photoshop what' you do drag on a [ __ ]
1:23:53
drop it on the take a snap people do that was that was how that was how you did the smoke effects it's come back
1:24:00
into fashion now because of Apes yeah yeah that's exactly how used to do smoke effects on to turn off the um fire
1:24:06
alarms in uh the photography studio because the smoke effects would set them off didn't have and we had that with B
1:24:11
report as well didn't we we got into trouble a few times people s smoking a [ __ ] with some petrol and some
1:24:18
C no one cared about self-preservation none of that nonsense back then so Richmond Fon says hello to both of you
1:24:24
but my question is for John uh you have a mighty collection of Weaponry uh and
1:24:29
other military paraphernalia what is your Holy Grail that you've been after the one I um and he says why is it not
1:24:36
Sharps sword which we know you've got a cavy version of that in my office there the one the one I um need for my
1:24:45
collection is a Browning automatic rifle a v but they're so bloody expensive when I
1:24:50
started collecting I just wanted the average sections weapons for the Brits I
1:24:55
got a br a Sten and Enfield and weeley uh and then a couple of other bits of Bobs and then I got the the Mouser MP 40
1:25:03
and mp44 yeah and uh all the cool stuff and uh and then I got the Garand and the
1:25:09
M1 carbine and a Browning uh pist but the thing I haven't got is the is the American light machine gun because they
1:25:16
they cost about three grand now you can get a Bren now you could go I you I could order you a Bren tomorrow for
1:25:23
about 400 quid 450 quid nicely deactivated but but enough moving parts
1:25:28
to be interesting you know and uh but you try and buy a bloomen bar and they're 2,300 or 3,000 and I just don't
1:25:36
want to spend that much but they must have made so many more BS than they did BRS during the world it was it was
1:25:42
invented in 1910 I think and any they still used them in Vietnam even so so
1:25:48
they must have made millions of the bloody things but I don't so I don't know why there so expensive but if you'd like to send me one yes give you a
1:25:55
mention in dispatch thank much we put John's email in there so just somebody
1:26:01
get in touch with you now AR I've got a be if it's less than two grand I'll have it yeah I remember my grandfather
1:26:07
getting within a n whisker of um coming home at the end of the second world war with a Japanese Officer sword and a luga
1:26:14
and got caught at the last see my my Grandad used to work in a factory and I have two deactivated Mills
1:26:20
grades um which I use as booking um but they have the working parts in it so it you know flicks up the uh the
1:26:26
handle when you take the key out stuff like that but it's just it's just it's got no fuse in it there's no way you can must amuse your grandchildren well there
1:26:33
was a situation that I freaked my sister out when she thought it was real C version of one of those when I was a kid I forgot you know it was a grenade and
1:26:40
you put a cap in it and you pulled the pin and the handle FLW and Bang Yeah amazing there there was quite a I going
1:26:46
to contradict myself there was quite a famous writer who about 15 years ago uh said to his wife I'm just just going to
1:26:52
stay up a bit later to do some writing and she went to bed she came down the next morning and the guy had an Italian
1:26:59
grenade one of the Red Devil grenades which are really tiny percussion for and he had it as a paper weight but in reality it gone off and killed him went
1:27:06
off during the night blew killed him and she didn't even wake up um and poor
1:27:11
devil had killed himself was obviously fiddling with it and and it went to of his name um what a way to go yeah
1:27:19
well I put Dum on the rest of the put on the rest of his even next
1:27:25
question Chris moving on so a bit more light-hearted uh what if anything do you
1:27:32
miss nowadays that you had or could do back when you w were working at GW do you miss anything from the days oh the
1:27:39
people yeah yeah definitely the people um you know and uh the people yeah the
1:27:44
people and uh had a great common cause I thought you're all pulling together you're in a tribe it's very tribal yes
1:27:51
and uh yes it is when you're in a tribe it's it's very strong you know it's a that's what I miss yeah actually I had a
1:27:58
I had a a warhound Titan one of the early resins one before Forge World yes
1:28:04
that I that I'd model up this Blood angel that armac cast was it was armor cast it was an armac cast warhound Titan
1:28:10
it was yay big and I'm really super detailed with guitar strings no heavy duty E9 strings for the cables and all
1:28:17
of that and how had a blood angels Army and it just got absorbed into the play test armies at one point and I lost it
1:28:25
yeah oh bling it's probably sitting on a shelf somewhere it was there I just must be
1:28:32
somewhere it just go and give him a knock and go there's not a war Titan Round Here is I was it was it was certainly there it was there when we
1:28:38
were at Castle Boulevard it I know it went to Lenton and it was part of the studio you know Andy and Jervis used to
1:28:45
use that but whatever happened to no idea I me as an army painter I used to use lots of my old collection stuff to
1:28:51
to help out with projects and they just disappeared yeah they just disappeared so disappeared into the the E apart from
1:28:57
apart from that with John yeah I just it was just what people and times times is a strange thing you know this we are
1:29:03
talking for me 30 years ago and that's a long time ago and actually it was just a
1:29:09
buzz yeah yeah it was just it was just what we did and to be in that place with
1:29:16
those people at that time yeah what what a gift I mean like you were saying earlier like you know you had one bad
1:29:21
year but it it and that that's still like for me I had a couple of like that was not so great but it doesn't tarnish
1:29:27
the rest no it doesn't cuz I looked back at the rest was such fness and stuff and and and again we we you know we've
1:29:33
alluded to it but the people that I'm I the people we've lost you know we lost we lost way in England and he was just
1:29:39
he he was too young he was 56 and we lost Hal Richard halwell Rick's old
1:29:44
buddy and how was just such an extraordinary character I mean just an amazing polymath kind of G genius games
1:29:52
designer you know spacehawk dark Future these games flowed out of hell
1:29:58
and and again I'm going back to the book Andy Chambers talks about some of his early experiences with how well how was
1:30:04
playing uh playing or play testing a real Proto version of warm which later
1:30:10
came out with just some genius ideas he was just an amazing designer an amazing character I suppose it's like what you
1:30:16
touched at the very start which is why this is I think so important because like I I remember all of the characters
1:30:23
in here when I was much younger and they were much younger but they're now like grandparent age and they got families of
1:30:29
their own and you know life is going on you know if you don't capture that those stories and stuff it's just going to dis
1:30:35
be forgotten which is such a shame no exactly I think it's key it's really really good um I guess we got one more
1:30:44
question uh plenty of time plenty of time well got well we' got two I was just trying to out so we've got one for
1:30:50
you uh Robin uh which is is white dwarf was always been an excellent produ publication but what regular feature was
1:30:56
there was was your favorite when you work there battle reports battle reports yeah B reports I I guess you drove that
1:31:03
as an article right I I got I got back before I joined Games Workshop you know I would I you know come back in the back
1:31:10
in the day from about the age of 11 onwards I I I discovered something called the war Gamers newsletter
1:31:16
photocopied thing and uh I got into wargaming and then later in my teens
1:31:23
maybe early 20s I really got into Avalon Hill games you know hex bace games and I was a big squad leader player they did
1:31:29
this John Hill designed a game called squad leader which is basically a toy soldier game but with cardboard counters and I was a big fan of squad leader and
1:31:36
in the general magazine which was their magazine their equivalent of white dwarf they used to do this thing called after action reports where they get the two
1:31:43
designers who would talk about the game what they were going to do what their plans were they' then go through the game dice roll by dice dice roll and
1:31:50
they do a summary then didn't go very well oh yeah that was great my plan was genius and that's what was in my head
1:31:57
and so when I got into the studio and I was given white dwarf or said right you're going to edit white dwarf now
1:32:03
however that happened I went I know what we can do here that I want people and
1:32:08
again think back to world with no internet no YouTube no way of
1:32:14
communicating visually I wanted people to be able to look inside the studio and see not just people but JIS John Andy
1:32:22
Chambers Rick Priestley Nigel stman playing games and talking about it and presenting it and that that was my thing
1:32:29
and I was obsessed with it and I wanted that to happen and I made it happen and I'm really proud of that and it's still going strong today I'm really proud even
1:32:35
to the point where they do digital versions not just with Workshop but like other compan and I think it I got hold
1:32:41
of white dwarf I think 139 was my first issue was probably about August 90 and I
1:32:46
think it was October the first battle report appeared I went I know what this is and I know what's going to happen happen here you you remind me something
1:32:54
you had your interview with Jordan from Jordan sorcery watching that really enjoyed it good chat give it a watch um
1:33:00
when you're talking about squad leader cuz me and my dad used to play that loads um and I love that game and it got to the point where we're playing it you
1:33:05
got the little cards of like units and stuff like did he used to get free counters from them
1:33:10
no is that a thing but we we wanted to go to the ministry side I'm I'm what did I miss
1:33:19
you didn't miss anything but yeah we wanted to get into the miniature side of it so that's why like
1:33:25
rapid fire we went into that and then obviously now you've done like B action which is perfect I suppose flames of
1:33:31
water certain degrees is like that kind of smaller scale but I prefer J joh something Chris back in the early 9s I
1:33:38
was really into squad leader so I got big sheets of polystyrene and I modeled
1:33:44
the squad boards squad leader in 3D in big sheets of poly sty I used to play
1:33:50
with Andy Chambers and we do micro we little micro little Sky micro tanks and
1:33:55
SS on Epic bases and we used to play sad leader with Miniatures cool every
1:34:01
because we love the game system I love the game system and that game system uh with with John Hills what's called fir
1:34:07
free effect you know basically the design parameter of squad leader said it doesn't matter what you do to guys whether you hit them with a flamethrower
1:34:13
blast them with a tank stab them with a Bayonet or shoot at them with a machine gun they'll do one of three things they'll either ignore you and car on
1:34:20
fighting they'll get the heads down and Duck or they'll die and he said you don't have to worry about the Weaponry
1:34:26
you just need to it's called you know it's it's it's called an effect table and that made its way into epic 40K
1:34:32
because Jervis and Andy both got squad leader yeah and John Hill as a as a great designer did he do tank commander
1:34:37
as well well John Hill did quite he did panel lead and yeah John Hill was the lead designer at Avalon Hill he wasn't
1:34:44
he wasn't John Hill because of Avalon Hill but he was John Hill was just a great designer he's no longer with us
1:34:50
again but uh Iris T tips his hat to John Hill yeah as does Andy and yeah we had I
1:34:56
had these big physical 3D model squad leader instead of cardboard boards I had the real thing yeah I suppose question
1:35:03
to you like was in like board games of your like childhood and probably like you know adulthood as well that you
1:35:09
wanted to turn into or have now turned into like a man's war game um board games uh what do we used to play uh we
1:35:17
used to try and play Escape from CIT oh yes play that many times it was just mental and nothing happened for hours we
1:35:24
play that with the overly most overly engineered game ever known to mankind um um but I mean
1:35:31
it's have to redo like the the roll call every 70 turns or something like that was just
1:35:37
mad how how would use us I don't know they must have had a lot of time in their hands in cold it was written by
1:35:45
the he wrote it yes uh yeah um uh Robin
1:35:50
very kindly bought me a two sets in fact of Custer's Last Stand from wton Battle
1:35:56
of the Little Big B Little Big Horn I've got those in my office I always wanted that as a kid I I cornered the eBay Market in that game for a while because
1:36:02
it was one of my breakthrough games as a kid I just went du this is great yeah yeah and it was it is still great still
1:36:08
great and I have about 20 copies of it amazing there's a there's a I'm just trying to remember what it was called
1:36:14
was it called Blue in the gray or fire and fury but anyway it's a American Civil War board game with plastic uh
1:36:19
blue plastic and gray plastic Mak it's so what's it called anyway it it was Splendid and that that still inspires me
1:36:26
yeah amazing I think of what it is but I always like the idea there was a game called cry havoc and I really cry cry
1:36:35
standard what used thought was you have like the Knight on Horseback stunned so it be his horse then you have like
1:36:41
slightly wounded and dead um and I guess Baron's War kind of touches on that well they they did Samurai blades as well
1:36:47
standard games they did the Japanese version Diva was it one of those two wasn't it I can't the name was wonderful
1:36:53
yeah really I used to love that game system and um Wanted that in miniature form and I guess it is now and to a
1:36:58
certain degree with Baron world but yeah that was yeah yeah yeah yeah so I just went back into one of the first things
1:37:05
about when I was about 11 years old I designed a because of my ethics stuff designed a game where the mechanic was
1:37:11
you had kind of squads of six men and tanks were worth six and so but the defender R Was Won draws so you'd
1:37:18
multiply the number of men by the dice roll and then you get an outcome so actually
1:37:23
one one group of six men could fight off a tank but I'm just back in Nostalgia had a had a flashback
1:37:30
then battlecry Battle Cry that's what it was called battlecry that's that's what it
1:37:35
was that was the um Hasbro wasn't it was it Hasbro one of the big ones yeah yeah
1:37:41
great good well we're on our questions um is anything else you want to touch upon or ask before we we close down the
1:37:48
chat well no I think it's been great fun great thank thank you for thank you for you are three of you you can't see you
1:37:55
he's still there he's still there like a horse race uh narrator I really love
1:38:00
love the questions coming in from your punters as well that's really nice yeah that's been great fun one our toes I
1:38:06
mean the one I didn't ask was what's your favorite cheese yeah normally gets asked every
1:38:12
episode ssb's organic ched oh oh taste
1:38:17
the difference you know you're SSB to be fair used to work there it's the organic
1:38:23
cheddar it's it's got the right sharpness and the right crumb red leester red leester oh amazing
1:38:31
I've become my my favorite for cheese on toast red leester yes it's the only one to do for that I've become a fan of Al's
1:38:38
own mild cheddar I don't know why it's just really creamy and really nice big
1:38:43
well thank you for sharing your time with us uh again check out the book on you said Amazon is's your it's
1:38:49
amazon.co.uk amazon.com in America America or talking miniatures.com
1:38:54
which and the the talking Miniatures is a portal to the yes to warlord games
1:38:59
because they will pack it up and dispatch it around the world amazing no it's been great can't wait to again probably have you guys on in the future
1:39:05
talking about other stuff that's related to Miniatures or just Nostalgia noal not
1:39:11
what it used to be is it again it's not not as Rose tinted as it used to be it's all black and
1:39:16
white well thank you very much thanks thank you guys we'll see you soon

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