Competing With 40K? Creating Your Own Miniature War Game

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hello I'm peachy hello I'm Patrick is that it yeah we are joined today by
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two amazing fellows we have will and Alex hello Hello Alex thank you for coming along people won't know this but
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you are the creators of an amazing new product called war on terror which is
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available today when this goes out which is May the 1st sounds so weird saying it but it's true uh war on terror so I'm a
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big fan we've talked about this on previous podcasts and stuff like that and um
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we had a chat with Dave from Ms paints I'm a big fan of XCOM he mentioned you guys you sent us some stuff yeah I've
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been painting some of the stuff still want more to paint this they are very very nice um
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it's for me it's like it's such a cool system and such a cool background that you made
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we've invited you on one to talk about yourself but also to talk about this product um that you've made so war on terror
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where did it come from well one day you're just sit in there and just went let's make it let's make a board game or war game very much well I think I'll
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pass it over to you to explain the name and maybe that but we met in weird circumstances that's yeah I mean how the
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game came about I suppose is um all throughout my childhood I made
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attempts to get into certain familiar you know games
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um and what they tended to find to be honest was that you obviously you walk into it was obviously warmer you walk into a Games Workshop and they try and
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explain it to you and it was probably just down to me mainly but a lot of it I didn't understand or
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didn't make sense a lot of the rules seemed a bit convoluted and so and I keep trying and I tried every few years
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I've got boxes of unpainted necrons and towels yeah it's a standard
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um and I always just thought why not attempt to make one yeah you
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know you've just got to come up with a rule set I say you just have to it's it's yeah it's easy right yeah it is
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yeah let's go with yes yeah and around the name as well you
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mentioned around uh the time I was thinking that unfortunate events happened in America yeah of course yeah yeah and then then so there started the
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war on terror yeah yeah yeah and it just stepped onto changing it to ter and it's so it's a pun but not yeah there's a
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suddenly think oh we're making light of a horrendous stretch yeah but also I mean that's the name of the earth if
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it's Latin right Terror absolutely yeah it makes sense and obviously some people say well that's the name of the planet
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of Earth in 40K now it's just uh in war and Terror we we're still calling it
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Earth we've changed a couple of celestial body names um but there was no reason to change yeah Earth still made sense we changed
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we changed the moon to Luna yeah again it's all because obviously our universe is expensive and
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if you're on another planet with another Moon yeah yeah it made sense yeah the Moon is
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no longer same as the sun is no longer the name of the body yeah but more a colloquial name for the body of the
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planet you're on yeah so it's more of a nickname it's like instead of yeah you stand on the random planets oh Solaris
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is rising no it's the sun yeah yeah it doesn't matter if it's not the sun anymore but yeah so that's a little bit
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of law so with um when you decided hey we're gonna make
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our own game like was it law first was it Miniatures first did you have ideas initially about
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how it would all go wait where to start because you know the
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reason why it's hard to start is because yes to all of the above uh we're both massive sci-fi fans uh we
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love things like Independence Day yeah just like loads of all of the above all like massive sci-fi so we love law and
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we're not these we're not just these guys that watch the movie and are quite content with disappearing
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um we read we dive and we quite like proper science uh science Concepts and
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uh so we knew we needed a good law base at the same time that helped us come up
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with the ideas of certain races uh factions models I being military background always and I
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think you mentioned it on a recent podcast but it was like like when you watch movies and you're counting the
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rounds going through the through the weapon yeah you're like yeah that mag only held nine rounds and I think he shot like 23 it's the old Hollywood
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magazine yeah well that wouldn't have exploded in that way but I look at certain positions of models and I'm like
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that's not that wouldn't be a comfortable firing position kind of thing or you wouldn't be able to fight in that armor don't get me wrong you
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wouldn't be able to fight in a lot of sci-fi armor yeah sometimes even ours but we've done my I've done our best and
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uh to try and make it that way so that helped the models and the law all fit in as well
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um and then the rules all three came out at the same time it's always been that's that's why it's always been if you look
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at the successful tabletop games there's like a trident yeah you've got it's got to have great models yeah it's got a
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solid rule set yeah and then it's got to have a law it's got to sit within the universe yeah there's obviously gonna be
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a lot of people that only you're interested in one maybe two of those aspects but I think if you if you have all three
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um it just works and then obviously I think uniquely to us we all three grew at the same time yeah so
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anything that our models have become and things that they can do are rooted in the law yes there's the rule of call but
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also at the same time we've gone we've gone quite like a hard sci-fi yeah yeah so everything has to be
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vaguely explainable yeah in in the context really I remember when we were chatting at chilco and you talked about
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like you want to introduce like as much realistic science into in into the background as you can without being too
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like far-fetched like you know how do we fix this problem with Star Trek oh we'll just make up some you know let's fix the
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tracks laying bandwidth to uh you know reconvene the uh the two coaxials together and then yeah well it's all
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fine we're sorted it's like what the hell just happened there's no problems with startering yeah
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oh no don't give up I love Stars
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um for my sins I wanted to paint some stuff I post up on Instagram you've seen it and I just want I just want to stick some color on on those models yeah for
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me the the there's two bonuses to these models one this I don't want it to sound like a negative they're not overly
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detailed which for me is a good thing because I can add well that's detail that's a little bit so just to jump in
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there that is I felt like a lot of certain games especially with the obviously with the
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real um popularity of 3D printers now being able to just 3D print beautiful detail
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it's very easy like well see I'm saying less is more yeah yeah agreed and some
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models um not just gws but others they're gorgeous but when you've got like an
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army game and you want to paint upload and load of models I want to be able to add details that I want and to add
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individuality rather than have to sculp it away yeah yeah and it's like I want to add this as a character because I've
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given him that a little bit of detail and that's kind of why we wanted a little bit of a again it's going to
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sound a bit of a neg but a bland model I wouldn't say it's bland I say you've got you've got a nice stylized uh outfit
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um so you look at you can instantly tell this is your your um iconic trooper and I've not seen
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other Troopers I mean there's been a few like comments on on my Instagram going oh it looks a little bit like um destiny
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and like Yeah from this or but not like this is exactly like it's like you've got like tropes and stuff you can like look at and draw inspiration from like
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anything but the thing I like is like the armor makes sense got like nice like these like circular I want to say
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Pistons but hinges and stuff like like the leg joints and stuff but as a guy who likes to paint lots of things I I've
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really got in recently last year or so into Star Wars Legion and the first I didn't think I'd enjoy painting the
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Clones but having that opportunity to put like different clone markings on the Clones armor they're much smaller uh
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slighter so like trying to do the 50 First it can be a bit of a ball like when you're trying to get yeah yeah whereas with your your stuff I can
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go a bit more to town I've got a bit more larger space mine was a bit failing so I can like do broader lines and stuff but I just found like doing white armor
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with red lines on it or I've got loads of room to do camo patterns and they stand out whereas sometimes like um
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you'd get like armor you'd get like a bit of a breastplate bit of a shoulder blade you put the camera on it it
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disappears when you put all the other colors on just like oh yeah I did all that effort and now I can't see that much of it because it's just like so
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small and but this I've got like a whole canvas no armor that I can put stuff on
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I've got like some spot colors I can pick out like the the domed helmet and then you've got these little buttons that I like do little glories on and
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stuff like that um and you can add details like the dagger you don't have to stick it on if you don't want to but yeah and it's
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different places you can for me is I'm not a great painter of models so it's
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again keeping it simpler like that you've got you've got the more like the effector models you're only going to have one or two of those yeah probably
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so they can be more detailed yeah but if I'm Fielding load of troops yeah exactly painting's not my bag necessarily then
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obviously they're just they're easier as well you don't want to have to paint if each one's so detailed and you feel like
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you have to get every single everything yeah in there yeah it's too much too much for me yeah no I mean I think that
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that's it's a good thing to to push really because I wouldn't say it's like a floor of
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Workshop but that they Games Workshop has over the years increase the detailer models which is great for like painters
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and absolutely exhibition paint and stuff like but when like someone like me who wants to like get loads of stuff painted it becomes more of a hindrance
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than help yeah and it's extra time invested where it's like here I could just like spray up white on like 10
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figures uh do a wash do a dry brush and then get some I can put my effort into like a bit of markings you've got time
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then to customize yeah yeah I don't have to be working round belts and pouches and Purity seals and like all sorts of a
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Trinkets and trophies and stuff um so for me it was like just seeing those was was great the level of
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what you could do to it even though it's like not as detailed as some other stuff out there and so I think that's a really
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really good move I've yet to paint some Grays I've seen to Pat before you guys turned up and sprayed some and my sticky bit on
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Mike because I've got like a wooden spray stick if they dropped off and like one smashed or not at all
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I can't like it because he's like broken in bits I could try and do it I might use them as a corpse or just like bits
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of blown up baby why not um but I really like the idea of like the grays versus the human so you've got These two factions uh in in the set
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which is the greatest versus human so you've got like that that Roswell connection which is yeah um you know the great traditional
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looking aliens yeah the greatest thing you mentioned got the Grays and the humans in the Set uh yeah the set that we sent you
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um but the the initial box which is what you got the four factions available aren't the
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factions that you you can get you can choose one like two of the four yeah um
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you could even choose both of the same faction if you just want double up on the human forces because
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you don't really like the other three you can do that as well so you get like two tanks and things like that that's absolutely fine and that was another
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thing we'd spoke about it's just like so many Star boxes out there is everyone gets them everyone's got exactly the same yeah yeah yeah it's just like well
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what if you've got like we had a couple of comments just like oh especially uh last year at tabletop gaming live one
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guy went I absolutely love the haraka um I've got too many humans in power
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armor and I was just like that's a fair point man like I'm not going to take offense of that because we all have lots
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of humans in power yeah yeah um you choose yeah it doesn't matter I still think most people will go for
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humans versus Grays yeah yeah yeah yeah crazy crazy we've done is to hold this
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the whole X comes out like you said earlier looking for inspiration we looked online not to try and copy stuff
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we'll see when you create something like that you don't want to yeah suddenly realize oh it's exactly like that yeah
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when we went online to find gray alien models you can't yeah yeah there was
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there's very cartoony ones yeah they call like ray gun and stuff I mean the only uh models out there for XCOM or
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like a couple of human operatives that you get in the board game yes they did do a board yeah yeah so it's like app
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bases it's like you get like uh the original well I said the original the XCOM one not XCOM 2 because they
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revamped it recently well in the last 10 years um you have like an assault a support heavy and then something else and they
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just like did each one of those four times so you could like use them on the board game and stuff like that so then
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anything's really that exist or something human Troopers I look nothing like your guys and stuff which is fine which it kind of works what I like as
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well I was gonna be um get to which I paint these guys on on Instagram and then I read through the factions
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went oh they've all got their own generated Colors oh no but then you know you could have
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like different factions or shoot off factions or different like color schemes from this this yeah so the way of
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the way I well because we did have quite a lot of chats over like how we're gonna
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we don't want to do it too heavily because we don't want to lock people into color schemes um so like 40K has had the main chapters
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that then splinted off during the second founding and then third and fourth yeah um we kind of did the reverse where
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Earth got into a little bit of a sticky situation everyone fell out resources
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became well they dwindled and people got a bit hordy like um I mean a great example of that is
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just go back a couple of years the old toilet roll scenario yeah yeah yeah it's just like no people would never do that
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people 100 do that it sounds like it's happening again yeah so I thought brilliant that that then
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locks people off into groups and eventually if that stays around people are going to form sort of like larger
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communities territories again reform country borders are going to break down and government's going to break down and
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eventually what you end up getting is just like tribalistic gangs in certain areas given a certain amount of time
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um they're going to end up having colors yeah they're going to end up having like all the same military gear because they'll steal it off each other so
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everyone's kind of equipped in the same way just different ideas different um
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well again colors um prose Consortium and then then we get attacked by the
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Grays and there's a reason why they then attack Us in the law obviously like the old independence day
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everybody joins to defeat the aliens and that's when they form larger the the
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main factions yeah but you can do color schemes from them because they're gonna still have ties back to their old tribes
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and games and things like that so you can have you can have a main color with
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a different arm because that's a little bit of tying back to that previously yeah you can do anything you want with it yeah
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um because we haven't really got any faction specific rules yet we've got ways to implement them in the future
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we've got tons of ideas for the future um but we just want to get the game out there yeah get it settled maybe release
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another faction uh because we've got more so many more ideas there's so many more ideas here in the pipeline yeah um
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and go from there so colors wise it it just paint them however you want to paint them yeah I've been loving seeing
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all the different colors it's amazing it's all people are posted and stuff um I was once I've realized that you've got
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like a bit of background for each of the factions I was like oh there's like symbols that like you know got the oh no
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I'm going to get this wrong so no correct me there's there might be an American continent the United continents
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of America United and there's what I would probably refer to you you have to tell me the name but it's pretty much
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like China top of Russia Central Nations yeah yeah I was like oh that's cool so you've got like you've made your own
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sort of yeah this was this in in our world or the our history but you've like combined like a whole bunch of other
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um countries with it as well so it's become its own thing which I really like and you look through and you've got a bit of background to them you've got a
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bit of colors and there's just one called the darkness is that based on the pop group
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but it should have been yeah just have like Justin Hawkins as like a custom yeah yeah um no we just
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thought it was a cool name yeah and the description is pretty cool it's like top secret top secret yeah they all wear
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black top secret top secret certain sub-factions are still black but this is matte black that's a little bit
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of gloss black yeah yeah that's a bit of both yeah and it's our favorites um the
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alcaboulan Empire um I think we found years ago that there was an old term for African continent
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and we thought to reunite the continent under one Banner so to speak it's it rolls off the tongue really
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nicely yeah yeah and um every step of the way we're always we're all thinking oh that'll be a great rule if it's like the leopard print ones no oh no they're
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the South America yeah yeah and every time remember because
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it's so yeah I think it's spread across the world we're starting with four uh forces but over the five that will have
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um I think there's 63 different factions we've got so far oh so we've come up with different yeah and I'd say for the
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humans they've each got their own symbol and then yeah they've got their own um Esperanto
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because obviously in in our universe as as the worlds come back together we've formed this Global language uh we tried
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to come up one and we thought well they've already tried it with Esperanto we'll just yeah yeah nice
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um so your humans come with like these cool domed helmets and stuff like that um down I mean I'm not at all suggesting
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anyone should do this but down the line are you looking like doing like different sorts of um upgrade sets for like different
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weapons hundred percent helmets and stuff 100 yeah you've got loads of ideas for different well because of the different factions yeah uh sorry like uh
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yeah factions across the human Force um and as I've just explained about having different backgrounds and
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everything we just want to try and piece together quite a bit from all the world mix match some of them and bring them
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together yeah yeah so yeah there'll be faction specific ones and then they'll just be general ones because some people
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like painting heads and faces yeah yeah yeah and quite frankly even if they even
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if we didn't there were so many decent companies online producing yeah or sending you stuff stuff or stls to print
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our heads that yeah people can you know looking at trying to get Like Mine Jeff and uh Pat's head 3D printer there's a
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guy ran knots we've got to get the Stars to align because he's like I want to scan your faces oh you actually got
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those things now yeah yeah he can only do weekends but Jeff Khan and then the weekend he wanted to do we were all like
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busy and stuff like that so I need to catch back up with him but I'll just be great to have different scales of our heads that we could just like you know
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put on all sorts of different models like I want to do some napoleonics let's stick my head on sometimes you just have your face on a warlord Titan
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big shoulder cannons hello I'll just get cardboard and make it out of toilet roll
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just walk around on the tabletop do it so yeah you have to wear that to choke on that [ __ ] yeah
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I love it um so so you you've come up with this background you call it the law
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um how did you find doing the game mechanic well we there was one thing that as soon
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as we had it the rest of the everything just followed through and it was the impact uh the um
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engagement grid okay which originally we just called it the grid yeah yeah um and it was the 20 by 20 yeah
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um how to hit your opponents and everything from there all the characters
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um sort of like intelligence records all their stats the movement how to hit combat ballistic everything we use that grid to try and find
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how outrageous something would be like if we need good armor how using the Baseline of what we've got what would it
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need to be to be like a decent armor stat yeah and everything seemed to fall in place
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we I think what helps us a lot is we had um with we have the sort of juxtaposition
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between will being familiar with a lot of tabletop yes yes and Rule sets and me
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basically having zero knowledge yeah a little bit to some idea of how bits and pieces work so
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there's been when we were coming across yeah it's like oh so now we need to talk about movement so
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this is what other systems are doing so or that okay well that sounds good or that bit why would you do it like that
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yes yeah so putting those two ideas together because sometimes it's just oh that's just the way it's done and someone goes well that doesn't make
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sense yeah suddenly you realize oh there probably is a better way of doing that like I never understood
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a D6 for everything um yeah I'm not picking on them no no I mean I'm so used to V6 and I've only
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recently A lot of people we had a guy called James Hewitt on who was a game yes yes yeah I watched that one yeah on on a lot of the comments so many people
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was like saying this is exactly why Workshop games should be d10 and I was like I never even considered like the
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difference between moving from D6 to d10 so that's like scope if you've got something tying up
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and going up against something blade yeah you just got six I mean it was we jumped even further I mean we've obviously gone D20 yeah yeah because
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then you've got that full yes what's better than 10. but then it gives you more scope right
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to fit more stuff into it so which makes a lot of sense really because I never really made that connection because I'm
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so used to D6 rule system well I was yeah I was and there's there's loads and loads of times where as Alex just said
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weird in sit down okay how does so how are we going to do this oh don't need to explain it everybody knows how to do
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that it's like no but they don't yeah it's like they're doing like what if they've never played a
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tabletop game oh yeah good point it's just like oh so yeah yeah they don't know how to do it
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and it's yeah a lot of the rules actually were aided by yourself not really knowing
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or not being familiar with lots of different rule sets just yeah explain everything there's there's certain
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things in in rule sets which it has to be that way yes yeah you can try and make things as realistic as you like
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yeah it's still a game yeah you can't have just Reams and reams of rules yeah I mean I've played those games and
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sometimes it is just like a lot of head scratching hours of likes running through rules and just like did we play
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anything no we didn't we just looked at a book for about yeah so yeah I could appreciate that um I
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mean I've I've had an attempt in the past of creating rules and stuff like that I don't know exactly the pitfalls
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because you and James talked about this on when we had him on like you know you have these things you really love and
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stuff that you refer to as killing Your Darlings and these things you're really passionate about that you have to like no it's not working it's actually
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holding me back um but yeah just making sure that you're always at the Forefront of your mind like imagine you've never played a game
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in your life the the terminology or because Workshop did this with one of the I think it was eighth edition
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Warhammer um they saw so many people were so used
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to the Panic rule in the rule book no one explained any point in the rule book this this got caught before it went
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obviously nice at no point in that rule book did it tell you how to take a panic check no it was flagged up by a couple
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of people that's what I was told that's what yeah like oh people just know how to do that yeah yeah because you talk about like Terror and fear and like or
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psychology but no point did it tell you how to take the test well that was another one actually you just mentioned
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you use Terror and fear and like psychological like Warfare whatever
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the one thing I found in the past as well that was quite confusing to me when I was when I really started
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when it would go through and be like oh if it takes damage remove it from the table or if it takes damage it's killed
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oh or it's killed outright or it's died and it's like they've used loads of different words there does died mean the same thing as
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removing from the table yeah or does being obliterated mean the same as diet
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yeah and it's oh and then obviously yeah they do but actually that's not clear so
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we have used the same terminology all the way through yeah so every stage we've referred to something as like well
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dying yeah it's like there's no obliteration there's no like yeah Immortal wound but it's just died it's
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died it's dead yeah so you know what we're talking about the synthesical levels are the rules as
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you read them it might seem quite wordy yeah but we've we've written it so there's no ambiguity yeah yeah and then
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yes and there's there's set phrases so set words we use are capitalized yeah and yeah you'll probably see as you go
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through just so there's no you read it and you you know what it means yeah yeah there's there's nothing
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which is annoying because in person explaining to someone one of the
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simplest rules in the world trying is two minutes okay writing that in a
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really simplistic format is like two pages yeah it's so looking at it it's
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just like oh this is going to be a nuts rule like oh this is insane when actually the attachment rule like in our
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game just means that if they're more than two inches apart they're just two different groups yeah that's all it is
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if they're not and they they share a same type they're one group oh I'll get
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that you write that down yeah you write it to explain it so it's not ambiguous it's horrendous it sounds very common it's
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the same with um like from a painting point of view like dry brushing simple technique but putting that into words for people to
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understand is so difficult and has to be like explained in such a way that there's no sort of like room for error
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of people like removing too much paint or not removing enough and yeah how it should look on the model it's just like
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so for something if you sat next to someone and showed them they're like oh that's the temple
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so we we've talked a lot about um well I guess the Miniatures and and
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and some of the rules what fascinates me is is how you get from taking it out of
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your minds onto paper into the finished product that that goes on Kickstarter so
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I guess getting all the cards printing all the Miniatures designing them did you do that yourself we who you see here
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is just is everything war and terror is there's no there's no extra people yeah it's just other than a couple of mates
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to help play test sometimes yeah yeah um just because sometimes if we play test too much between us
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we might think oh we'll add a rule like this and we'll write it like this and actually because we're now getting so used to it that we might miss yeah yeah
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yeah absolutely oh we just know what that means let's bring in some fresh eyes let's like grab my mate Jason and
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be like do this read this how does this read it's like
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go beyond guinea pig but no yeah it's just us it started from
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it starts if another we had the idea uh I met will through work and then knew that he was into modeling it just it
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came up but we didn't have any of the expertise you just you'd assume you
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needed yeah um because obviously what we've got a we've either got a hand sculptor we've got 3D model these so
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um what looks like we're going to learn how to 3D model so you go online then you find a software like blender which
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is yeah open source yeah and there's a steep learning curve but you you find yeah you find your way
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through it and then did you like make a donut that's the famous tutorial no I never have dance with no this I I
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haven't I I just I just watched a lot of five minute tutorials on this is how to connect two vertices together this is
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how to Union two shapes this is and eventually over time it just this is how
27:35
you decimate a model without losing like detail and it's like that's where I've been going wrong
27:40
yeah I I haven't but I know the exact video yeah everyone knows that don't
27:45
yeah yeah yeah if you type in how to and blender yeah it's a donut yeah yeah what
27:52
we might have to do I don't know if we want it popped into the to the video or anything but what you do is I'll send
27:57
you some shots of the first because you've seen the Marines yeah yeah the first one I ever came horrendous we were
28:03
happy with it we were willing to roll with it we were like this is the best thing ever let's go yeah
28:13
because I've done this where I've like I've I've done a paint job or I've done a conversion I've gone to work I've come
28:20
back the next day it's up to my desk what a pile of yeah dog poop what the hell was I think
28:26
it was yeah I mean we had children so yeah we came up with
28:31
that as a basic idea and then I thought well because sometimes when you're focusing on one thing yeah it's tedious so often you've got two or three
28:36
different models on the go so you can just you can chop and change so I thought oh well we'll do a different we'll do a
28:41
different model it's gonna have a slightly different armor and then in discovering how you'd oh I wanted to let that and then you watch a video and you
28:47
think oh that looks great oh that'd be so that's so much better than the like our bogster because like I'm Gonna Keep
28:54
arching back but a space moon is and always will be iconic yeah yeah it's
28:59
designed so we knew that even though it's a basic troop it has to be yeah yeah so yeah I mean don't I mean that
29:06
the design you see there is probably our I mean that that shape is pretty much the second one that we yeah it was
29:12
actually yeah so I mean we're quite lucky as not to say there's been other models where we've yeah I've tried 20 different designs and
29:19
they've been so from being in an arts background because I was at college and Union did lots of art one of the things you always pushed to do is you you're
29:26
like right what you want to do we're doing the concept in today we're going to concept like I don't know a body work for a car or something like that you sit
29:32
there and you sketch the best car design you can think of but what you encourage to do is do 20.
29:37
so even though you're like hooked on the first one you have to like still do 20 more just in case there's a better one
29:43
or a more refined one and it might just be the first one you did was fine yeah and obviously the second one you did was
29:49
the one you settled on but I always remember that from like the college was like when I was like doing stuff for work or like color schemes like for
29:54
forearms and stuff I'd always like do five or six more just in case I'd find like a better sort of um uh like style
30:02
or where I position the color and stuff but if you know you know you don't you it's like the style you're just like this is fine I'll do it for for the
30:10
teacher I find I'd find a spare 20 minutes at work and we'd be struggling on something and an idea would come into
30:15
my head it's the old always keep a notepad yeah by the side of your bed kind of thing just in case you wake up in a hot sweat and you're like I've
30:22
dreamed of the idea to go straight back to bed um yeah to find a spare 20 minutes and
30:28
Alex would have messaged me going I just can't get this this leg armor these legs I've looked at the legs for too long
30:34
today and it's just like oh a human but just like this what do I do for butt
30:40
padding like how do we make their bums look it's like what yeah it still looks like it's wearing a nappy yeah
30:47
so I just get a piece of paper and a pen and I just sketch a shape um because I'm not the best but I'm okay
30:53
at putting some shapes together and I'll just take a picture send it to Alex and he'd be like uh
31:00
oh actually yeah yeah and sometimes what he'd come back with would be nothing
31:06
like what I sketched but it's that but the shape might be like ah okay I've got an idea now and that would help and a
31:13
lot of times it's just again working through it yeah like yeah so as you ask like how where do we start
31:20
I had no idea you you chat to me seven eight years ago and tell me I was able to design a model on blender like 3D
31:26
model it and then print it and actually have it as a physical thing I'd love I'd just I'd be like there's no way I'm
31:31
that's not me I haven't got any qualifications I've got no just I wouldn't where do I start with
31:36
that yeah and and even then like Alex came to work one day and opened up his laptop and he threw some shapes together
31:42
on this wacky program that he got for free I just imagine YouTube to dance in at work
31:50
throwing some wacky Shades well I couldn't believe it and even then knowing that Alex hadn't had a
31:56
background in 3D modeling even then my brain was just like oh never be able to do that and it took me months to get
32:02
over like to get to the point of seeing something out of Alex had worked on and being like
32:09
I I think I can change that so I'd force myself to download it get the file how
32:14
to play I thought oh no I can do this yeah absolutely I can do this and it just
32:20
went from there yeah the great the great thing is just just start doing it yeah like if you want to say to anyone that
32:26
wants to do it just start the internet such a wonderful tool yeah I mean we use yeah so we use blender for the modeling
32:33
um obviously we've built this world on the website which again is just done through Wix so there's no HTML coding
32:39
all the graphic designs um I use a unfortunately named program called [ __ ] which is yeah basically yeah
32:46
it's an open I wonder how you were going to bring that up yeah I didn't just want to lay the word out there randomly without content I I am familiar with
32:53
[ __ ] yeah but just before that come because before
32:58
that comment gets lost that's an open source Photoshop for people that don't know
33:04
um so again all this stuff's available out there for free and and then it's really it's on yourself but again you
33:10
have YouTube and there's yeah there's nothing you can't learn to do yeah from YouTube yeah can you tell me it's just
33:16
please at one point did one of you say bring out the [ __ ] did anyone at any point say that I think you've got to
33:22
have done it yeah sure you've got to do it uh I mean I've looked at the website I really like it um I love your shots of
33:27
all the different factions and all the different units and stuff and you've got like little army shots of like the stuff that comes in the box of the humans the
33:33
Tank's amazing not a boat with the tank yeah I need to get on and do it like saving you for the end we've had yeah
33:39
we've had had a lot of love for the tank again coming back to something you said earlier um things that people said it looks like
33:45
we've got because you've got the scorpion tank from Halo yeah because it's like got the four like quarter
33:51
tracks yeah Mammoth tank there's another one yeah yeah as soon as you add four tracks though it immediately looks like
33:58
everything else with four tracks yeah yeah you know the best one though was the um some say it looked like the tank firm
34:05
ThunderCats it's been a long time the fun of it especially like a cat
34:12
lying down yeah on two tracks of the arms and it's got the head so not exactly like yeah I can see where yeah it's like anything else we've said on uh
34:19
that I think it was when we're talking to Bob or one of the recent chats we were doing is like there comes a point where there is no sort of super brand
34:26
new design because there's only so much that you can and a lot of things are inspired by other things and then
34:32
tweaked and changed um you know like 40K for instance that you know a lot of like the human element
34:37
are just like napoleonics thrown into the future yeah we're given laser guns and just made Splendid outfits slightly
34:43
tweaked but you know trying to make something it's super alien you need to be actually alien to be able to make
34:50
something yeah there's a couple of things that I've always well there's one aspect to designing the
34:55
Grays that we knew from the start and it was a little bit about us knowing a lot about sci-fi but
35:01
before I get onto that one thing I found really funny is I love going through all these like oh it looks like this reference yeah yeah I've never played
35:08
x-con I mean never it wasn't until people started bringing it up I was like let's start looking into this
35:14
um same as the um the human visor um I even had a friend bring it up uh
35:19
that it looks like was it Destiny yeah yeah never played Destiny yeah same so I I didn't know it's like ah it does
35:25
really look like it's no idea because we had a we wanted to make the Grays look different but we always wanted we wanted
35:32
to tie back to that Roswell we wanted sci-fi based in reality kind of thing so and the Roswell style gray was a great
35:39
one to go for because it was like everything we could do for them it's kind of already written yeah and we
35:45
could borrow from the conspiracy theories and everything about it their vocals or their speech Works
35:52
through vibrations which is great because you put sand on a film and put a vibration into it it makes a shape yes
35:57
right yeah yeah we haven't put it on the website yet but we have created a language for the
36:03
that's what crop circles are yeah that's their vibration language which is really cool yes why not yeah
36:11
um I had a I wanted them to look sickly or like weird to the human eye
36:17
yeah so we're quite a chubby species I suppose we're very like cylindrical and
36:23
I thought the one thing that's really weird is just anemic just like real yeah no organ type thing and my brain went to
36:29
an old game uh called Legacy of Kane's Soul Reaver okay I don't know if you've ever played it or heard of it you play
36:36
as this main character called Raziel and he's a blue skinned vampire yes I have yeah this is quite an old game yeah yeah
36:42
like but he was like he was like thrown in water and it's acid to them and it's all in the law but it ends up like
36:49
scarring away all of his organs and he's got his rib cage and his spot yeah oh God and it looks great and I was like
36:55
that's a good shape yeah Alex had never heard of it so I showed him a picture and yeah he's got the big hips and
37:01
little teeny like midriff and then you've got the ribs and it worked it worked to make them look
37:07
sickly and skinny and just non-human and then the one thing that I think it was
37:14
you that came up with the idea about the spine um yeah everything's got one spine yeah
37:19
everything in sci-fi no matter how alien they are they've only got one spinal cord interesting so our Grays I've got
37:26
two nice yeah why not yeah it's it's the one teeny weeny difference which is just
37:31
and it highlights very nice yeah you've got this nice highlighted bit going down and yeah that's really cool yes I
37:39
thought why not and then they've got two ridges going up the head because of the double spot yeah yeah yeah it just worked it really changed up the back of
37:45
the model as well because obviously it's great having the front of the model when you're painting it but when you're playing with them yeah you see in the
37:52
back yeah you see in the back so yeah yeah it was a great addition to that yeah that's amazing so one thing I'm going to do with the stuff that when I
37:58
get it all painted yeah obviously I've got like two colors three color schemes now that um are just like a bit of a just like me playing around so I'll
38:04
probably get some more at some point but um in XCOM one of the things that I always quite liked when you have like
38:09
this when you play the normal game I like modern stuff there's a lot of moderators out there yeah just like do
38:14
free content and give you berries and different head Styles and different like armor oh there's this really cool armor from this film I'm gonna stick that as a
38:21
mod that I can have so you could do that with XCOM but one of the things I really like and it's still there is no matter
38:26
what when you when you higher recruits they come from a nation
38:32
and their flag and their name is there you can change the flag of the name if you want to customize your own but it
38:37
goes they have like a little sticker bit on the back of them oh you did that on the uh yeah yeah so I printed out ages ago a load of
38:45
different like Nation Flags to that scale that was just going to cut like different ones out and have like you know this guy from Canada this guy from
38:52
India this guy from Nigeria and stuff like that so just have like a mishmash of like it's the same outfit it's the
38:58
same uniform but they've all got different like uh yeah yeah we might just yeah we're gonna
39:03
yeah we're gonna steal that there's uh it's yours that's how you find inspiration just
39:10
talk to people and nickel day yeah that's what I do that's what I've always done but yeah you shoot one
39:18
um so I want to put myself in in the shoes of someone that might want to make
39:23
my own game yeah um and we you talked about your Inspirations from the all learning
39:29
blender and all that sort of stuff how did you then take that and turn it into a finished product that you can then
39:36
sell like where do the cards the dice how do you make models on mass and that kind of
39:43
thing yeah so I mean obviously we haven't had to make the modern mess yet uh
39:49
obviously once you go down the route of 3D modeling you then find out that you can 3D print them yeah so then you get
39:56
your hands on because there's very decent 3D printers yeah very reasonable reasonable price
40:02
um I mean that's that's probably going to be the future yeah of most things replicated right right
40:07
exactly we're heading in the right direction um so yeah you look at that and then
40:14
things like the cards and the dice you just you just have to look and find companies like obviously the graphic
40:20
design we did ourselves yeah that's not to say that you can't Outsource but I would encourage anyone to say you can do
40:25
it yourself yeah you just it might take you a bit of time and a bit of a bit of work yeah but then yeah you find
40:31
companies when we've kept it we've seen a lot of kickstarts that have had problems with because obviously there's horrendous issues with China now
40:38
in terms of getting stuff over the additional costs and people waiting I know people are waiting three four years
40:43
for things yeah it's really insane we're using UK companies for everything oh
40:49
great um so yeah things like that obviously if you got big enough you can buy the machines that yeah that make things of
40:55
it to start with yeah there's a company I think then a little place called March which I think is Norfolk way
41:02
um yeah Ivory Graphics I'll shout out to them so yeah they're they're printing our cards uh that's fantastic they're
41:08
amazing yeah yeah so you could yeah you can do things like that it just yeah arcs back to
41:14
yeah teaching yourself how to do a multitude of different things that yeah you know so if you're already into one
41:20
of these things you already probably Jump Ahead yeah of where we were when we started yeah so would you say um like
41:27
from an artist's point of view there's a lot of really nice visual uh geometric
41:32
shapes that you've done for like the different factions like you know all the different logos and stuff like the Grays the humans and stuff and obviously the
41:38
way you've presented the war and Terror website um is that something you learn or is that just something that you all had
41:44
because you've both got very different backgrounds right because it'll be interesting just to talk about like where you both came from from a hobby point of view and how you met and uh
41:53
make it sound like a dating site really well yeah the the geometric faction shapes
42:00
well I'm just gonna put it out there like anyone looking at making their own game like humans are the hardest thing in the world because of the uncanny
42:07
valley I despise modeling humans any changing position to make a nice like I
42:12
don't know different well yeah different position model it's the worst thing in the world because if something's wrong your eyes
42:19
are immediately going to go to it and you know because you're a human and yeah exactly and even even the faction symbols the main five faction symbols
42:25
that we have uh so the human's gray Talus Watcher and haraka the other four were they pretty they came pretty easy
42:33
what there is no unified human symbol yeah we went through loads of different
42:39
designs and just ideas and until we just came up with one and we were like
42:44
yep let's just roll with it yeah and now I can't picture them without that yes yeah the affection was there's still
42:50
quite a lot of uh information that we haven't quite a time to get onto this yeah because all of the faction logos
42:57
and symbols they do have a meaning yeah they they Arc back from
43:02
be it where it is in in the world or or something about them like you mentioned the um uh the United you know the
43:09
central Nations yeah um their sign is sort of a circle with a bit at the top yes yeah it's a stylized
43:15
uh Europa us uh which is the snake eating its own yeah yeah yeah so yeah everything yeah we thought try
43:23
to think about everything yeah I was lit that was gonna be the one I asked because I did uh uh I did get them white
43:29
on red markings but on the circle but the front I kind of tried to mimic that yeah there's a heavily detailed one of
43:36
that it was um instead of a snake eating its own tail it's a snake going round and facing a dragon oh
43:43
um and they're kind of snarling at each other so I drew that one heavily detailed and Alex was like no simpler
43:48
yeah so I drew a real simple version it was like simpler so I went and I think I got the fourth one was just that shape
43:54
it sounds like my University course that's right yeah um seems like brilliant
43:59
um so I was like cool and that's that's how it came up with that sort of circular shape with a break in the middle yeah um but there's that there's
44:05
the detailed version of it so yeah every single one of them has either a symbol
44:11
from like language or mythology that bases that yeah is based on
44:16
the factions strengths or direction that they want it was good fun actually we learned tons
44:22
about different mythologies and history and loads it's awesome yeah really
44:28
really good fun so I want to ask a quick question just for our viewers because it might like one of these guys
44:34
so Alex yes your background a brief description of who you are what you've come from and how you both met and then
44:41
we'll go on to you will because you know because you both combined forces at some point yes my my background not quite as
44:48
exciting as you'll find out wilses um I've just been a chef for I heard the
44:53
chefs of seal just checking that out there Chefs of seal yeah have you never seen Under Siege
45:00
oh no am I showing my age I've seen that one that was it's well under siege is the
45:07
only watchable Steven Seagal is a Navy ceiling as a chef so I've said
45:12
I've seen under seats call watching now that sounds amazing so I thought I'm
45:18
normally pretty good at film quotes and I missed another blazing film the
45:26
guy looked to me like what if you're not I mean I'm the same I have sometimes I'm just like I have no idea what just happened to me to be fair the way he
45:32
said that I was like Chef is I went down the seal route initially
45:37
I mean he does laugh like that
45:42
I'm not gonna lie yeah I was that yes I was like oh is there some like weird
45:49
weird language about being a seal when you're a chef sorry did I ruin it all
45:54
right so you're a chef yes but what I'll do for next time we'd meet you is I'll
46:00
put on some weight slick my hair back out but yeah yeah
46:06
um no just a chef really fell into it when I was uh the teenager part-time and then
46:12
never fell out of it really left school and favorite dish to cook uh it's got to be something of venison
46:18
oh I think um Yeah well yeah anything really that
46:24
venison's probably the best mate was it about venison because I've had a venison Burger a few times ago because I used to
46:29
go to reenactments and they used to have like a venison burger stand and also I've never tried it before and I had a
46:35
venison Boo and I'm just like up on this every time yeah it's just yeah I'm in certain cut services are slightly gave
46:40
me a meat yeah best thing is going to be the line where if you enjoy a decent fillet steak then you're never gonna
46:45
have any issues is it more The Taste or just like what you can do with it um what you can do I mean it's pretty
46:51
but with a lot of the cuts of meat is pretty pretty similar to what you do with a cup from a carrot really yeah and
46:58
depending although obviously it's a lot leaner yeah um it's just a tastier meat yeah just to fight yeah far Tater going to fish a lot
47:04
more I'll take my kids fishing a lot now cool yeah my daughter caught sea bass yeah they should be very proud that I'm
47:10
mentioning uh so yeah feta did that the other end so but yeah I worked at a trout farm for
47:17
a time and would bring that back the odd rainbow or brown trout and I just have to watch my mom just like gut it and
47:23
then squeeze all the Poo out and I was like there's a lot more to cook in a fish than I realized just they're just
47:28
squeezing all this stuff out I was like oh yeah someplace I mean yeah she didn't want to watch as I
47:35
dispatch the fish yeah yeah but no yeah she was yeah she was quite proud of that so I've got how do I get
47:41
into that um so so you're currently still a chef and
47:47
uh uh you are you working in the same place together is that really no we um
47:53
I've uh yeah so having two young kids uh decided it was easier to uh basically go
47:59
freelance so I worked with a couple of agencies and just they can put you anywhere
48:05
um restaurants pubs cool schools uh and then zoos yeah there's uh there's a zoo
48:10
down uh near where we work um Portland Zoo I'll shout them out it's a nice place uh and they've got
48:16
accommodation there um and one of them's a cottage sleeps up to eight people and you get a private Chef that cooks you dinner and Cooks you
48:22
back oh wow so I got put there for two weeks which ended up being about four years and is that how you met well yeah
48:29
yeah because that's part of that um my job at the moment the zoo Ranger so not a keeper directly but the
48:37
education part of the park so we do dabble with the animals like in winter comes a bit quieter the sections need
48:43
help then I've helped out on all the sections uh which is good fun rhinos are the absolute greatest animals to work
48:49
with they're cute they're cuddly they're gentle they squeak when they're in a good mood but part of my role is taking people on
48:57
sort of like private bespoke safaris on a small Land Rover up to group of 10 and
49:02
basically for a couple of hours I just chat absolute nonsense about animals and uh it's shutting me up that's the trick
49:09
um part of the cottage experience is you check in you get a Safari or part of the Safari up to the cottage
49:14
uh we're then with you hosting for the evening carrying on
49:20
um while the chef cooks and a lot of the time you just leave the guests to chill out in the cottage and relax and
49:26
we end up having a laugh chatting about random movies and inventing games in the kitchen and then in the morning I'm back Chef in
49:34
the morning and then they get a Safari out and that's when they check out um and that's and how we ended up sort
49:40
of working together um but yeah before uh before I've been I've been there nine years now which is absolutely amazing uh
49:48
just it's flown below by um but before that I was Marines uh for
49:54
sort of four four years and before that was I was a young lad
50:02
Jeff would obviously appreciate that and I was in Cadets uh probably a lot of our viewers being a marine isn't easy it's
50:09
not like it's fun yeah but yeah the the recruitment side of it yeah it
50:15
says a lot about a human to be able to just get selected yeah so yeah cracking job you tend to obviously your brain
50:21
forgets all the bad stuff so I look back I mean it was because the stories you told me it sounds pretty easy
50:27
it's the times you were having on the ship so oh yeah yeah every time I call home from some random country I'd be
50:33
drunk and I'd be like oh Mom I'm in Albania it's like I'm in Djibouti it's like oh I'm in California it's like I'm
50:39
having a great time but the brain forgets the bad stuff yeah so I look back my little cousins just passed out
50:45
of Marine training um October November an Islam proud older
50:50
cousin kind of thing and um yeah I was hearing all his like nightmare stories
50:55
fresh I'm like oh I do remember it like that I had a great time and it's just like no no yeah I probably didn't it's
51:01
just I remember watching a documentary it was I can't remember what the ship was now but it was a royal Navy ship yeah it was a TV crew that I think was
51:08
like BBC kind of documentary and like one of the officers had just taken the TV crew around and there's like a bit at
51:14
the front of the ship where there was like I think they had like some games going on and they had like a load of like um plants just all bushed up just to add
51:21
a bit of greenery to the ship it's just great yeah it was just like walking around going oh this is where the Marines train I don't know if you can
51:26
see them right now but they're probably in there somewhere else like a couple of it's like they're all losers we don't
51:32
get on with them here they shoved us um when I was on ship they just shoved us on a real low level and they were
51:39
just like yeah they just leave them alone yeah they'll entertain themselves but just
51:45
like having a load of toddlers are throwing them a load of toys and be like they'll keep themselves busy for about a day or two and it's like I suppose as
51:51
well from that point of view like a ship Marines when you watch a lot of sci-fi you have ships in like Enterprise they
51:57
end up having the main which are like you know the the armed element of like the the Starfleet Chrome stuff like that
52:03
so I think when it comes to like doing your your sci-fi kindness if you like I know I know about this I know what from
52:08
a even though it's Naval on the sea oh no it's um having a forces background has helped
52:16
um designing the models making sure like the kneeling position there's lots of kneeling positions it's
52:23
to take especially when you're firing a rifle but some of them just aren't comfy and don't
52:28
they don't work you see some models taking a knee and it's like that's not a good firing position yeah that's not
52:34
going to help you at all you might as well just stand up you know my favorite firing position I've ever seen it's really old school it's like do you know
52:40
much about napoleonics yeah so British Rifleman used to do a thing where they're just like lay back and then
52:46
cross their legs yeah sounds like it's like just chilling
52:51
enjoying the holidays yeah it's a great way of just yeah makes makeshift tripod yeah yeah it makes perfect sense yeah it
52:58
really does um one of my favorites was you just sit down and you you kind of like you if you
53:04
bring your feet in you do the stretch uh to stretch the inside of your legs yeah yeah you just do that and you pop your
53:10
elbows in and you hug it nice and tight yeah and you're just this little contained little ball it's so comfy
53:18
it's just so comfy sitting on a hill it's like it's so comfy right just squeeze right up that was always a good
53:23
one um but no it's things like that always work uh it's good fun and people always
53:28
like well I left the Marines I think Feb 2014 and I
53:34
literally started at the zoo March 2014. oh wow and I started in the gift shop yeah uh yeah started right from the
53:40
bottom because I was like there's no way I'm going to jump straight in but I'll give myself a five-year plan and if there's one thing the Marines and well
53:46
military in general give you hits the gift of the gab yes we've got Jeff so
53:51
yeah yeah exactly you know it and uh yeah start chatting to people like come rain or shine I started like
53:57
volunteering helping people out even during the rain and they couldn't work me hard enough there was no way it's like we've been here a lot you're not
54:03
tired I'm all right all right yeah I'm fine they'll still fit back then because I just come out
54:09
um and then he ended up getting me into chatting with some nice people and eventually a few months later
54:14
got one of the speaking jobs in the park um I'm a very loud person naturally So speaking to a lot to be the speaking job
54:21
suture yeah and yeah it just worked out from there and people are Marines to animals it's a
54:28
bit of a jumps now kind of like gorillas anyway aren't they just said that yeah yeah happy gorillas
54:36
how are we doing for a percentage on battery honey oh yeah a few times uh no yeah we're fine oh that's fantastic
54:42
that's good yeah do you want to get some patreon questions I do have yeah because I know he's been egging I could say oh yeah Wicked we've got I've got a few we
54:48
we asked we asked our patrons we always like to give them the opportunity to to tonight some of it might be the same kind of stuff we've covered uh well yeah
54:55
because I saw the one where someone asked a question about mashed potato and I think it won't yeah
55:00
I mean we might even get this I mean to be fair most of these are actually
55:06
um seem seem quite sensible oh fantastic good job guys which is almost almost
55:13
disappointing so someone has asked what considerations went into choosing resin uh for the
55:21
miniature material uh did you look at any any different any different options
55:26
we we've looked at lots of options the main reason why it's resin at the moment is because
55:33
the way we're doing it is obviously we've designed that we're 3D printing them yourselves yeah um
55:39
obviously moving forward that's probably going to be the best bet um
55:44
if the kickstarter is widely successful or even if it's not and as the business grows um with the volume comes obviously
55:51
different ways of doing it you've now got CEO cast yep uh which is again in plastic but it's a people that don't
55:58
know it's a there was a goober Town video about it yeah yeah good that's a good video as
56:04
well maybe a year or two ago yeah because generally it's because a lot bigger companies use Plastics bruise
56:10
what you're after and then you've got to pay quite a lot to have those CNC yashined and aluminum blocks and then it
56:15
gets injected in but obviously you can't have any underhangs because yeah the molds have to come away the CEO cars
56:20
it's hard rubber so it's a little bit more forgiving yeah and accessible for yeah so we're not saying it'll always be
56:27
resin um resin gets a bad rap I don't seem to have any issue with it that's all um
56:33
paints nicely yeah the quality of them yes okay you've got to use Supergirl instead of plastic glue yeah yeah
56:40
um yeah paint up nicely as you yeah just said I've not had an issue with the paint not sticking to it or anything
56:45
else like that um just I felt I actually felt like the cheaper super glue I go the nicer it
56:51
sticks yeah yeah like just don't don't look into it too much but different brands of resin and everything a lot of
56:57
the time well actually not a lot of time but in general again coming from a background of doing everything at once
57:03
designing the game uh there's not been a lot of time to hone in and become
57:08
masters of one specific skill so uh we are like followers of a lot of 3D
57:14
printing groups and everything where we do get a lot of like tips and tricks and things like this but I haven't got all
57:20
the Time in the World to just hone in my my resin Brands and dialing more settings and stuff which is a shame
57:26
because I probably could get far obviously perfected minis but
57:33
um there is best the qualities I can make them at the moment yeah and I just use any cubic resin I just found it's
57:39
really straightforward and simple I've I'm happy with that and I'm a bit scared of change it's just like I don't want to
57:46
check I mean this is just in case what they might mean is because sometimes you get or especially when you're in conventions and people are
57:52
selling stuff yeah they might not have cleaned it or no no yeah that's quite a
57:58
big thing yeah it's lots of videos online because obviously it's quite a toxic product you're working with you
58:03
know during the process but as long as it's everything's cleaned and cured and we do yeah it's all yeah
58:10
last year at ukg uh someone uh went to pick up one of our Primo models uh just
58:16
a Tesla marine and was like hard now I've bought a resin mini before and it had all the supports on it and I was
58:21
like whoa no no like I've made sure I've sanded it down and taken all the supports off and this is good to go they
58:28
were surprised yeah I was like wait what people aren't doing that right no way this seems well yeah coolest thing to do
58:36
I've got stuff with the supports on that was weird I also had the supports were a lot softer than the actual resin itself so you can just like pull it away and
58:41
it's yes it's fine but yeah I get it but then you've got to start somewhere right so workshops start off with like frying
58:47
Pan's lead pointing to like all the other molds and look at what they make now oh yeah absolutely yeah things things will grow and evolve um yeah I
58:54
mean if people are worried about because again that question might be in consideration of creating anything like
59:00
that yeah you have to um things you don't learn until you're looking into it and I might not be 100
59:05
correct on this but we'd be putting for 14 plus in terms of
59:10
age yeah the product as I think quite a lot of others do because if it's for anything below that you have to get
59:15
everything sent off yeah to make sure it's safe for kids in case they're like oh this Tesla Marine looks yeah really
59:22
tasty yeah I mean the small parts aside like if you yeah if you're making it because I think the plastic would
59:27
probably be fine yeah um as long as it couldn't fit down their throat but uh resin I don't think you
59:32
want to put that in your mouth in no no so yeah different different things to look at depending what yeah but what
59:38
we're designing for we think the resin's fine yeah I agree brilliant uh next one have you managed to sneak in any Easter
59:45
eggs at all the gray is most likely
59:52
there's things we've discussed that we haven't done yet things for the rule book yeah yeah
59:58
um which obviously is available on the kickstarts because people like a book so we're offering a book yeah the fact the
1:00:03
rules are on online yeah yeah I feel like I want to say what it is but not what no oh don't then keep it okay keep
1:00:11
it secretly otherwise it wouldn't be an Easter egg yeah um yeah nothing the answer is buy it and
1:00:17
find out yeah yeah behind a paywall we're I'm a huge fan of
1:00:25
I remember early days of YouTube there was a lot of it was finding the Easter eggs in movies and games and you end up
1:00:32
going back and watching Titanic because someone's told you there's a cow falling off yeah it's there
1:00:38
yeah so we are putting bits and pieces in and there'll be lots there'll be lots on the website and there's certain certain things in the way we've named
1:00:45
stuff as well which yeah definitely the planets that you named and everything else like in the star systems if you go
1:00:51
on like the world's tab on the website Alex has come up with amazing graphics
1:00:56
for like the style systems and everything it's all linkable you can click on them and we want to add in all
1:01:01
the information even like how long it's how long is it going to take you to walk to this random star from Earth why not
1:01:07
why not um but a lot of the planets didn't have names so for example in Ursa Minor and
1:01:13
Ursa Major they're Latin for Bear Big Bear a little bit yeah um so a few of the planets within those
1:01:19
systems so I just named after different bear species nice sense and then there's uh draconis star system so you found
1:01:28
different languages or for uh or different dragons through mythology and folklore and then different parts of the
1:01:34
dragons like claw for then separate parts from that so there's loads of like that we're quite big into our etymology
1:01:42
um so there's a lot of law or Easter eggs rather they're not really Easter
1:01:47
eggs they're surrounding names it's nerdy Easter eggs yeah yeah like there's quite a lot of because you know again
1:01:53
we're going to detail and a lot of this isn't on the website yet because it's time frames so yeah was being put but we've made up scientific papers or
1:02:00
pseudoscientific papers to match the things and a lot of the scientists you might find their names are
1:02:06
mismatched from characters in lots of uh sci-fi yeah um novels and films from way
1:02:13
back so there's there's nerdy stuff to find yeah we're getting there we're getting there
1:02:18
but there's yeah there's a few bits we're gonna a few bits we're gonna hide excellent so
1:02:24
yeah worth looking out yeah absolutely that's quite a nice actually because you you start to think well if you put it in
1:02:29
and don't tell anyone yeah maybe no 111 no yeah yeah they start looking so now hopefully at
1:02:36
least this is when we don't put any in yeah and just look forward to yeah I found one it's like did you oh it's the
1:02:41
Easter computer games I really like like uh the Elder Scrolls stuff and like Oblivion and Skyrim or have Easter eggs
1:02:46
from like movies and stuff there was like um if you ever have seen the film Lagoon is yes in Oblivion there's like a
1:02:54
version of the gooners ship inside a cave that's amazing and you can get like a Cutlass like it's like a special magic
1:03:00
weapon and stuff but you have to you wouldn't know it's there until someone mentioned it and you have to like go on the internet to search even how you get
1:03:07
down there so there's all sorts of random stuff like that desperately I can't remember any because briefly in the car on the way here one of the
1:03:13
videos that popped up on like a Facebook reel was all the Star Wars references I made in video games oh yeah oh yes yes
1:03:21
one of them tore through and went back in time to Paris and then then extra theater and it's got like in French
1:03:27
Return of the Jedi in the day and stuff fun Fantasy games always have a bigs and wedge
1:03:33
yeah okay yes yeah because they were fans of Final Fantasy the creators and they just want to add in a bigs and
1:03:39
wedge yeah yeah fantastic okay someone has asked I think
1:03:44
we've talked about it a little bit with play testing uh how did you manage uh you uh to balance the game via play
1:03:52
testing or did you take inspiration from existing games well we looked at a lot of existing
1:03:59
games and thought none of them are balanced so it doesn't matter no
1:04:04
um it's worrying how accurate that is yeah
1:04:10
is it am I joking Will's gonna explain that but that station that statement is
1:04:15
truer than you think yeah yeah it's um essentially balancing war on terror
1:04:23
as yeah started earlier I mentioned on the engagement grid and we've designed a
1:04:28
lot of the game surrounding that engagement grid and and we kind of followed all of the
1:04:33
roles from there the point system for all the models uh we came up with a way of so like the
1:04:39
battle value to to field them on on tabletop uh there was a way that we invented to equate the point system from
1:04:46
there and then by play testing some of them have had to have tweaks and everything some like that one rule
1:04:54
doesn't fit all yeah um so we've tweaked every bit from there however balancing or on terror in
1:04:59
general there's there's a how I've been saying it is
1:05:04
because I'm not the best at chess and probably Alex's kids could steamroll me
1:05:10
in chess but that's probably one of the most balanced games in the world yeah yeah it doesn't mean because I I'm absolutely terrible at it that the
1:05:15
game's unbalanced yeah yeah so because there's however many million tactics that you can move in chess yeah so war
1:05:21
on terror because we don't have a unit system we don't really have any um sort of forcing of
1:05:28
unit coherency and things like this you can mix match your models in groups and
1:05:33
sizes in typically any way you want so in the games that me and Alex have
1:05:39
played with the same armies Graves versus humans there have been games where Grays have just absolutely dominated the
1:05:44
battlefield and it feels just like oh this is a bit unfair do we need to change this nope let's play another couple of times and even the last other
1:05:51
couple of times it'll completely flip the script not only because of the dice rolls but maybe I ran larger groups that
1:05:58
turn uh that game I ran larger attachments and it worked better to have more humans in a blob than spread them
1:06:05
out into individual models of maybe that works better for me and so but then it'd
1:06:10
flip again the next game because maybe he would then learn what tactical against it yeah so balancing is very
1:06:16
hard because you don't just have these 10 models are X strong yeah it's like no these 10 models could be 10 individual
1:06:22
models and they're very weak by themselves but then your opponent could separate all their models into individuals and
1:06:29
great now what do I do because I can only kill one at a time and so yeah balancing the game is very difficult we
1:06:36
don't have a unit roster so there's no such thing as like well you must bring one HQ and two troops or whatever
1:06:41
if you find out what your opponent's Fielding and he's bringing in all vehicle list and all tank lists then bring completely
1:06:48
anti-tank inventory or models and the game's going to seem very anti-band like
1:06:53
very balanced in one way but that's fine because that's that's what you've done and that's what those models are
1:06:58
designed to do um so you it's up to you to design a balanced list
1:07:04
and field them and do the tactics that you want to play which in short means that balancing is
1:07:11
next to Impossible yeah because it's all about once you buy it's balanced by the player's skill more
1:07:17
than anything else yeah yeah it's um I can't remember the YouTube video I
1:07:23
watched it might have been a lecture one of one of these conventions someone talking about balancing games and they said the because even chess is in
1:07:29
Balance because someone goes first yeah yeah but the most balanced game there
1:07:35
ever is is rock paper scissors yeah it's also the worst most tedious boring game
1:07:40
that's not say that our game isn't balanced we've done the best we can but but it is important
1:07:47
but no because because you can take anything you want in any yeah yeah you might find they're knocking me off the table every single time but if you take
1:07:54
the right units and use the right tactics yeah suddenly
1:07:59
you're not yeah you're balancing the game Yeah by being better at it exactly but another thing as well I've had years
1:08:07
of experience we talked on previous show about um black powder and it's a Napoleonic game and I've played games where um
1:08:14
there was a guy at head office who's very tournament-based a guy called Greg um and he had he he like literally when
1:08:21
he wants to play he goes tournament mode so I was like do you want to give him a Black Panther's like yeah a couple of brigades of like infantry
1:08:28
and one of Cavalry um and in my infantry there was like a cannon in one of them and he went off brought big battalions
1:08:34
you get an extra bonus if you do big Battalion so the normal size you get small battalions which is like 12 no not
1:08:39
12 figures like eight figures medium sizes like anything between like 18 to 36 or something like that and then big
1:08:46
fatalities is 40 plus and even all like loads of big potentials which gave him all these extra rules and everything was big battalions yeah it's I think he had
1:08:52
two or three more brigades more than me so instantly I'm like I'm outnumbered but the game just because of like the
1:08:58
dice rolls and just the way we played I lost but not by that much nice
1:09:04
um and it wasn't about the game balance was about he had more force it was just about how he played oh so and any
1:09:10
Warfare isn't balanced right no there's no balancing no never um so if the one thing you you want to
1:09:17
make sure is it's going into real wolf at Warfare you want it as like as little
1:09:23
balance as possible you want to dominate over them so make sure you are safe yeah yeah so actually you don't you don't
1:09:28
want to balance them offer there's no fairness in war yeah yeah um speaking on uh coming back and
1:09:34
seeming like you're starting on a losing Edge we have a weather system or planetary weather system in the game uh
1:09:40
where you shuffle a deck draw a card and random effects can happen um while play testing one of the games
1:09:47
um and my buddy actually mentions like oh do you want to do you want to start again because this is quite unfortunate I drawed um sort of heavy lightning and
1:09:55
uh you roll a scatter die and then you roll 2d20 and find out where that lands on the board yeah and it just so
1:10:01
happened to land straight over one of my attachments and I had to roll saving throws and I lost six guys straight off
1:10:06
the bat and nobody had even moved yeah and I was like well that's great I met I lost the game but I'll tell you what I I
1:10:13
pulled it back and he's like yeah do you want to join the start again I was like no Dems are the rules so that's the game
1:10:19
and he can't help lightning and yeah yeah that's great that was a good game it was a good game it was nice having
1:10:25
that random effect as well it could just like completely change it yeah because at the end of the day as well it's still
1:10:31
it's a game yeah and it should be fun and things like that happening are fun yeah I mean yes obviously some people are not going to find that yeah but
1:10:36
they're going as tournament mode then yeah yeah sorry I digress but I had a game of
1:10:42
Warcraft big fan of Warcraft simple Skirmish game yeah you can like try and there's there's a guy I work with called Nick and Nick urmston and he wanted to
1:10:50
do stormcast and he found like the perfect stormcast model is an Archer because they're 12 feet fight really
1:10:55
well but they've got a bow so they can shoot as well and they move faster than normal stormcast I was like okay so he's
1:11:01
like I think I've broken the game he was like cool the great thing with warcry is you get like a deployment card you get
1:11:08
like a video condition card you get um and something called a Twist so you that this is how you work out your scenario
1:11:13
and he was just like yeah I've got this and I was like I'm gonna get cream cracker here but give it a go instantly The Twist was you can't shoot anything
1:11:21
more than like three inches away so his ability of having all these bows was
1:11:26
instantly lost that's great and he had like five guys at about 10 or 12 something like that so I was able to get
1:11:32
these objectives and stuff like so he's there just like great oh this game's rubbish yeah yeah it's not balanced at
1:11:38
all but that that's I mean that that's the thing that is like war cry is really good at like that's cool regardless of
1:11:43
whether you think you're gonna lose it the twist will like maybe throw out a bit or make it really one-sided you're
1:11:49
like oh I'm definitely gonna lose this but you it's so quick Pace you could play like three games in in a couple of
1:11:54
hours yeah but yeah having like a car like a weathering system or something like that that throws it in there it
1:11:59
will I think it's such a really good way of doing it yeah yeah smart move fantastic sorry I waffle them no no
1:12:05
sidetracked you could say yeah absolutely um do you have any stretch goals planned
1:12:11
for your Kickstarter nope nope nope we both don't really like
1:12:17
stretch goals yeah um because it means that if if you don't meet them then you're getting a worse
1:12:23
game yeah it's like great so I'm I'm expecting to get this really cool game with all these really cool moving parts
1:12:29
and these nice little metal tokens and whatever it is like yeah oh there are a hundred dollars a hundred pounds off 50
1:12:35
yeah I don't know whatever it is off and now you're getting like card yeah it's all brilliant no no we're we're no
1:12:42
stretch goals what you see on the kickstarter yeah is from the material the cards are made from
1:12:49
um the detail of the models is absolutely of the best that we can give you yeah is is the best that we can give
1:12:54
you I can confirm that box that when you handed it to us is like the nicest boxer I've ever like got from someone like
1:13:00
because you like fold it open you've got all these like you've got your your uh what would you refer to it like you the
1:13:06
grid the grid oh yeah you you lift up the next bit and then
1:13:11
there's like the soldier you lift up and there's like the cards and stuff like oh my God and like the tokens and things move on to lack of a better word we
1:13:18
wanted it to seem classy yeah
1:13:23
the way of yeah yeah you know it's really well packaged really nicely done
1:13:28
and yeah Testament to you guys putting a lot of effort timing so it's it's I would liken that to you like I I always
1:13:35
lose sunglasses because I usually wear glasses and if I wear sunglasses I'd put
1:13:40
my contacts in the other I always lose them I put them down and forget about them and I was like you know I'm 33 now
1:13:46
and I invested in my first pair of like nice sunglasses and opening them was
1:13:52
like an experience yeah like the packaging and I was like oh my god
1:13:58
um and that's like like had in that box too it was a chill con it was just like I can't even make the noise because
1:14:07
almost ethereal you know dry ice should come out yeah yeah yeah it was another
1:14:12
we probably sort of I think about it now at the time he probably it was there subconsciously
1:14:18
it's people like unboxing stuff like oh yeah oh you've got to watch these reviews these videos on on YouTube
1:14:24
people just unboxing randoms and obviously the nicer it is and then everything's revealed after layer yeah
1:14:29
yeah it's that it's that internal monkey brain it's just like oh what's inbox yeah it's just like yeah God do it just
1:14:36
open the box yeah so we wanted things to be like us like so you
1:14:42
it's difficult anyway because a lot of things you see on um on kickstarts tend to be more board games like completely self-contained
1:14:48
yeah yeah be hiding quality behind stretch goals yeah people have no
1:14:54
controller so you might back thinking oh if it reaches these stretchfield because I like those models but then there's nothing further you can do to help that
1:15:00
yeah yeah they get missed and then yeah it can only really lead to disappointment because yeah that's a
1:15:05
really smart way of looking at it because I really thought about that I was just like yeah you just go to the next tier if you if you look if it happens yeah that's a very good yeah
1:15:12
because we've hopefully when the kickstarts is live you go on there the page is quite well laid out and clear
1:15:18
because what we do for I'm not knocking anyone but what you do find is some of them are so long and complicated and
1:15:24
you've got all these stretch going all these add-ons you think it seems like they're just trying to bombard you so I don't know what I don't
1:15:30
know what I'm getting but it looks like I'm gonna get a lot yeah yeah yeah yes yeah and I think the stretch goals and
1:15:35
also yes the starter box itself can say you can buy that play the game and never have to get anything else yeah but
1:15:41
obviously because it's scalable there are models that you can add on yeah we've got another down the line
1:15:46
absolutely so yeah but again the add-ons are what you're going to get yeah yeah yeah everything we want to give you
1:15:54
we are giving you yeah at the Quality that we want to give it to you yeah yeah yeah so right from the right from the
1:15:59
get-go so also yeah long yeah long story short no more of a a slightly philosophical
1:16:07
question from uh from Sam here are you first and foremost a game design company
1:16:13
who use Miniatures or a miniature company who designs games to use
1:16:18
Miniatures oh that's a call back to a conversation you have with a different person on Hills now I think
1:16:34
in their business statement they are a miniature company yeah and the games are
1:16:40
a vessel to sell Miniatures yeah we well our company excuse my belly by the way if you can hear it on this side to
1:16:46
apologize all companies AWA game design so war on terror isn't the company the war on terror is the game yeah so AWA
1:16:53
game design so we're designing games yeah we've got
1:16:58
free four more games ideas there's there's a few planned yeah
1:17:03
you can try and knock this one out first but well yes yeah we can roll we've got a fantasy ball game I was literally
1:17:10
gonna ask if like is it You're Gonna Keep to sci-fi going to move to Fantasy
1:17:16
style tabletop war game as well in mind we've got uh like a total war risk style
1:17:22
gain that we want to bring out and so we're definitely a game company uh we we
1:17:28
enjoy games yeah um but that doesn't and that doesn't mean we're gonna like forget about the
1:17:35
models yeah so I would say we're a game company that designs yeah I think what happens they have to work in tandem yeah
1:17:41
yes I think you'd be hard-pushed to say it's one or the other yeah yeah because
1:17:46
I'd rather people enjoy playing the game with worse models than people who have these absolutely stunning models with a
1:17:52
rubbish game yes yeah the amount of times we got together to work on the game and ended up just playing it because yeah I know it's easy for us to
1:17:59
say you know blowing our own trumpet but it's it's a fun game to play yeah yeah but originally we had to play it with
1:18:05
proxy models yeah we're using Warhammer models the game is still fun yeah but then with our models that just it all
1:18:11
came together yeah it never felt like war and Terror when we were playing with proxies yeah yeah which was a shame it
1:18:17
just felt like a random addition or 40K exactly 40K models yeah yeah
1:18:24
um no I mean you know there are inspiration to a lot of people you know they're
1:18:30
they're a good points for us yeah yeah if they hadn't been around them being someone would be doing no there's also
1:18:36
not nothing wrong with like having your own opinion and being professional about like how you you know see like the
1:18:41
competition I wouldn't say competition but you know Games Workshop is a love
1:18:46
that I've had for decades but it's not perfect there's always things that can be better than those things that in like
1:18:53
that's a weird decision or whatever so yeah I have to keep apologizing we're not we're not going down the river or
1:18:59
like well you have to play 40K or Warren to play both yeah play both yeah we've got loads of board games at home you
1:19:04
play all of them yeah you don't have to stick to one play both it doesn't matter play more yeah play all the games yeah
1:19:11
um someone has said with such a potentially bloated Market what do you think the USP for war on terror is and
1:19:19
why is the answer because they look like amazing Zerg aliens
1:19:24
no no that's that's just the answer
1:19:33
I've thought about so many times we can we could rattle off in all the ways that we think our game's different
1:19:39
you know we've got a bit of attachments that's that makes a huge difference yeah it's streamlined because we've removed
1:19:46
certain roles yeah like I'm rolling to hit you then I'm rolling to wound you so I've succeeded in both those oh
1:19:52
you've saved it or something did they hit you yeah and wounded you yeah so yeah an example of why I specifically
1:20:00
wanted to get rid of that rule was I mean there are multiple stories of real
1:20:05
world military um sort of tales I suppose um didn't know how I was going to finish
1:20:10
that sentence but people have been shot in the head okay and this is why you wear a helmet yeah the bullet has
1:20:17
entered through the helmet but the the air pocket within the inside helmet has
1:20:22
curved the bullet around the skull around their head and out the other side of the helmet wow so
1:20:29
this is where 40K and I know they're getting away with the the role now in 10th I think but previous editions it
1:20:36
was yeah roll to to hit roll to wound armor save all you need to do is roll the change
1:20:42
the order roll to hit armor save then you roll to wound yeah because that guy that helmet that armor failed yeah but
1:20:49
it still failed to wound yeah yeah so that to me that makes sense so he he got hit and his armor failed but it didn't
1:20:55
wound him yeah yeah yeah so that made sense but do it in the wrong order
1:21:00
that never made sense yeah like that that's yeah streamlining that rule made
1:21:06
sense yeah it's um another thing is because a lot of people
1:21:11
ask us whether it's a skirmish game or an army that as well and oh that's probably our main one yeah yeah actually
1:21:16
thinking about it the scalability yeah so because obviously removing being I'll keep calling it coherency because that's
1:21:22
probably what people are more familiar with but yeah because you couldn't spread out and each model as its own
1:21:27
thing you can play five versus five or five hundred versus five complete the same rules yes um all I'd say to
1:21:34
discover is I know it sounds like you've got a thing going by but if you play it you'll
1:21:40
understand what the unique selling point is yeah it's yeah it's above all else it's a fun experience to play again and
1:21:47
again I know it's but it's generally we created it because
1:21:54
we want we like tabletop but we wanted to play the most fun version thereof and if we
1:22:01
had to create that version then yeah that's the way to go about it yeah so someone's asked three questions but I
1:22:07
think we've covered quite a lot of them already but they do say I love the very dice types and different mechanics both
1:22:14
additive and subtractive rules yes some kind sometimes combining the two you could get even more granular and
1:22:20
interesting than necrom under even yeah yeah um so the the additive and subtractive
1:22:26
dice rolls were well they helped us get around cover
1:22:32
saving terrain were there's no such thing as a cover safe um in the game it's terrain gives you
1:22:39
certain additives and subtractives and by that we mean if the enemy can see not 100 but more
1:22:46
than 50 percent if you need a 13 to hit because they're slightly hidden
1:22:53
you need to let's say you're on a D20 you roll a 15. well you've got a
1:22:58
subtractive D6 so you roll another D6 and you subtract the total so then you if you've rolled two or more you've
1:23:03
missed yeah um or three or more sorry um but then you can have more than that
1:23:09
you can have a subtractive D12 which makes getting hitting people very difficult and they're accumulative so
1:23:16
but they never add together so if it says 2d6 we mean 2d6 they don't become a
1:23:21
D12 yeah because on 2d6 you can't get a one yeah so it's actually beneficial for
1:23:28
you yeah so roll two D6 instead of a D12 yeah so the maths works and we've kept it true to that so if you've got a
1:23:34
shield everything attacking you has to roll the hit roll with a subtractive D6
1:23:39
yeah however if that guy with the shield is behind cover where a little bit of cover minor cover that's 2d6 to hit him
1:23:46
and it makes it very difficult sniper fire get no heavy weapons if you stay still for the turn set up a proper
1:23:53
Firing Line uh firing position and you get additive D6 to your hits certain Canon rules and things like that
1:23:59
get additive d12s if you're only firing the cannon and you haven't moved and
1:24:04
it just gave the scope the game such a wider scope of hiding behind terrain and
1:24:11
it feels like sometimes moving up the board like playing Gears of War yeah yeah where it's all about hiding behind
1:24:18
terrain and poking out and shooting and then jumping back in and I've been replaying it as recently oh and it's
1:24:23
fresh in mind then yeah it really fits Terrain is so beneficial in war on terror
1:24:30
whereas all my time playing 40K when I was younger I never actually considered a lot of terrain yeah it just didn't
1:24:36
make sense to me and another thing that didn't make sense in some games is you only get one save roll
1:24:42
so like if you have let's say you're playing a Space Marine librarian you have that invulnerable psychic shield around you
1:24:49
the bullet makes it through that well still has to make it through your army yeah yeah so why does it why can I only
1:24:54
roll one yeah and then if I'm behind a wall then surely I'd get to have multiple
1:25:00
saves because then it has to get past the wall then it has to get past the shield and not psychic Shield then it has to get past the armor but I'm only
1:25:07
allowed to choose one yeah see why I always yeah because there's a time when that would make sense and tell me that
1:25:13
wouldn't make sense so if you got hit by a plasma gun your armor wouldn't admit it because it's like on a piercing whatever it immediately goes through
1:25:20
enough to use that field yeah but then you will not be able to use your arm because it will just melted it yeah but if it's like a gas machine you're like
1:25:26
well I'm gonna use my force field first and then it gets through that then sure which makes then having bringing setting
1:25:33
armor penetration weapons for certain things much more valuable yeah but still only allowed to choose one so
1:25:39
that didn't make sense so it probably took us the longest I'd say a good two to three years of
1:25:46
just trying our best to ignore it actually I want to say tinkering with cover saves yeah and I think you were
1:25:52
around mine one night and you just went oh I've got an idea
1:25:58
and it just Alex just came out with this additive and subtractive role and then we were like oh that's a good idea oh
1:26:04
that might work with this oh it does nice oh let's let's do the cover let the amount of examples I might start sound
1:26:11
complicated but it's it's really not and the way we've used it with so many different elements it just
1:26:17
yeah it makes everything work and everything have a reason to from a war game's point of view it's like a lot of
1:26:23
war game uh certainly like myself like you make scenery you want to make it look like it's livable and usable
1:26:30
but a lot of all systems out there just don't account for this so they just become interesting line of sight
1:26:35
blockers as opposed to you can see any part of a model you consume yeah it doesn't matter if it's the tiniest
1:26:40
little hole for a window the shot is there yeah it's gonna be a detour my subtractive D12 but well you
1:26:48
can and there are impossible shots you can throw a fire through infantry in Warren Terror but there is a grid firing
1:26:54
through attachments grid everybody loves a grid and depending on who you're firing
1:26:59
through whether it be friendly light friendly heavy enemy like enemy heavy Infantry
1:27:05
it makes your hit harder so it gives a bonus so if you're firing through a
1:27:11
couple of light and friendly light inventory and they're also behind a wall yeah
1:27:16
give it a go and we've had a couple of shots like that where it's like I need a 19 or 20. okay it's like quite cool
1:27:22
though I've done it has it I suppose a scenario you've got like some big bad leader and there's all these guys
1:27:27
they're wearing walls you just want to get your sniper to take out the big bad leader you've got to work your way through these absolute things
1:27:35
you could do sometimes yeah and in modern Terror you don't want your captains in front yeah because you want
1:27:41
to have that well yeah you want to have that human cover yeah okay you want you want that
1:27:47
cannon fodder yeah the operation meets you oh that being said if you're all out in the open just because you are at the back it doesn't mean he's better yeah
1:27:53
yeah yeah yeah genius yeah that's really interesting um one of our patreons was also asked
1:28:01
um what are the three most important steps to complete before taking a game to Kickstarter
1:28:09
oh wow okay um I guess I really like that one I think
1:28:15
and I know this might sound obvious and stupid but having a game a finished game yes to Kickstarter so yeah the amount
1:28:22
and again I'm not knocking them yeah different ways to do anything but the uh the amount of kickstarters you do see where it's all
1:28:29
it's basically they're telling you their ideas and Concepts okay yeah yeah um so
1:28:34
and they might it's kickstarting to getting it to be an actual product because in my mind kickstarting is you
1:28:40
it should be no you have the products you want to show people they're going to get you to meet you yeah yeah and the kickstarters to get it yeah so so I
1:28:48
guess in in I guess the the thing that Springs to mind in my mind in in like
1:28:53
wargaming painting is Duncan uh we're kickstarting his own paints they did have them all yeah formulated they had
1:29:01
the product yeah so that makes yeah a lot it's a big one and that's that's where stretch goals come into it as well
1:29:07
it's just like if they've got stretch goals if we meet this much we'll be able to get the product like this and it's
1:29:12
like so you don't already have the product good to go yeah you you have an idea yeah and you think oh we might be
1:29:18
able to make it in metal um if we have this map like no just get it just figure it all out and then go
1:29:25
yeah yeah um it's hard to think of like another couple it yeah well yeah because that's
1:29:32
sort of all-encompassing it's yeah I suppose the second biggest thing is obviously you need to get your name out
1:29:37
there yeah um obviously by the time this video goes out well the kickstarter will be live it
1:29:43
is our first Kickstarter so yeah it's difficult to comment because we don't quite know how it's yeah I don't suppose you ever know until yeah
1:29:49
it's there I mean yeah you want to have your name out there you want to have a bit of a following uh we've got a small backing
1:29:56
um comparatively um yes obviously the Yeah the more you can
1:30:01
get the more you can get your name out there you want to talk to people you want to contact people like yourselves yeah yeah
1:30:07
um and yeah and I'll just try if you've got one and it's it's attached to that one make friends yes yeah go to conventions
1:30:14
talk to people it's it's what it's how I started in the zoo it's like starting a gift shop I ended up just talking to
1:30:19
people making some really good mates making some good cup of teas and coffees by the way really gets you far so that's
1:30:25
it for life yeah sorry about that coffee yeah well I wasn't gonna say anything but um
1:30:30
do you ask chats people make friends you'd be surprised how many people know other people yeah and then as soon as
1:30:38
they start knowing your name they're like oh yeah I know you guys oh absolutely yeah no that's cool we'll be doing this uh do you want to come along
1:30:44
yes yeah yeah just be friendly be nice it's a nice Community get involved yeah get it yeah
1:30:51
I'll say get yourself on some podcasts I mean I found that when I left Workshop loads of people like would say oh do you want to come on the podcast and you'd be
1:30:57
like sure they're like I'm not a very big podcast you know I've not got a huge challenge I don't care I just want to talk Hobby and it's going to be like one
1:31:04
or two people that might be interested by what I've got to say in that that's one or two extra followers for the channels I mean the last couple of years
1:31:09
we've gone to several conventions with nothing to sell yeah then hello here we are yes this is our main thing to do and
1:31:16
yeah yeah yeah a couple of people have come up to us and they're like oh I'm not the biggest painting Channel
1:31:21
I've literally just started I'm like cool have a model you have this have this little Tesla Marine oh really I'm not that great doesn't matter there you
1:31:28
go yeah go ahead yeah do what you can with it like looking forward to it tag Us in it let us know and then we'll tag you and we'll help you as well and just
1:31:35
yeah make friends yeah be nice General relaxation yes really yeah and like like
1:31:43
um that's something I've always tried to do in my wedding business and I think it's worked for me quite well
1:31:49
um but say having Dave on the on the show Ms paints obviously put us in touch
1:31:54
with you guys um Weyland games got in touch with us um because they were like oh yeah cool
1:32:00
yeah we saw Dave was on there and we do some stuff with him and and just like just just through chatting to Dave and
1:32:06
having him on the show and talking about Miniatures and having a giggle um has opened like so many doors for us
1:32:14
yeah um it like unintentionally um it's not like I thought oh this is
1:32:19
going to be a great business opportunities but it it turned out that way yeah it's
1:32:26
amazing yeah yeah it's like you know go go into salute and chatting to people um you know we've got a couple more
1:32:33
people want to get on the channel just by just saying hello Yeah I said just being nice and saying alone just like oh
1:32:38
fancy come on the channel yeah I'd love to come on yeah Oh I thought you'd say no yeah
1:32:43
we thought um yeah I didn't think you'd say because obviously we saw Davis on it yeah yeah
1:32:49
that's right that's when I contacted you but I hadn't contacted you before because I mean you're congratulations your Channel's growing and growing yeah
1:32:56
enjoy enjoy watching videos and we thought you know basically we're relatively unknown this is yeah yeah
1:33:02
well we're completely unknown yeah yeah um yeah so I thought yeah assume people are
1:33:08
going to be like yeah that was good yeah for uh yes best participation game in
1:33:14
the show nice I love a little um yeah well you had a nice display boarding in
1:33:20
a nice little uh well oh it's in my cabinet board yeah the little little things in my camera yeah brilliant fantastic yeah and then the last
1:33:26
question uh that I think I'll get time to read out today from my patrons is if you were given one sentence to persuade
1:33:32
me to play war on terror what would you say um
1:33:38
by War Ontario I'll kill this cat yep that's the one that's that's the one
1:33:45
um and then it yeah if people if they're not cat people yeah I was gonna say if
1:33:51
you if you like skin wishes you like sci-fi you like painting Toy Soldiers uh
1:33:56
and you're like x-com yeah it's all of them uh no I think um
1:34:02
if it was me because the way I've not played I've read through the rules give three I'm I have
1:34:08
to play several times for it to connect that's just the way my brain works but I think it's
1:34:14
super um well laid out it's um easy to get grips with
1:34:19
um you don't have to go mad paint lots of stuff um and you can make it your own you can do anything you want with it really it's
1:34:26
it's kind of like I want to say generic sci-fi because you've got your own law and background
1:34:31
but you could do so much more with it and I've got a figure to give you not used it I've used a workshop human
1:34:36
head on it so it's very customizable as well uh so yeah you could literally do
1:34:42
what you want with the I suppose not the real system but you you can you
1:34:49
can play out what you want like the movies you want to play out you know we've touched on like oh it's like Destiny oh it's a bit like get you know
1:34:56
Gears of War if you if you really want to play Gears one there's no game out there you could use this as a mechanic instead of the terrain the right way
1:35:02
it's got someone's legs so much expands you can do expanse yeah
1:35:08
okay is um due to the scalability of the game it's super cheap to get into
1:35:14
um you can start off with five models a piece if you don't like it great if you like the rules but you don't like the
1:35:19
play style of the force buy another couple of models and see how you play so it's it's Dirt Cheap to get into and
1:35:25
it's super easy to learn like extremely difficult to master yeah and
1:35:32
that's that's what we wanted and I'd I suppose I was throwing my two cents in I'd I would say
1:35:38
first and foremost the game is fun yeah yeah it's crazy to be fun from my point of view who it doesn't come from like a
1:35:44
solid tabletop background but then it's also fun to play for people yeah come from that world and
1:35:51
understand lots of different different systems and stuff it's these are games at the end of the
1:35:56
day and Games should be fun and I think war on terror is the most interesting fun that we could
1:36:01
have made it yeah yeah I'd I'd just use two words quality and quantity because the the way you've presented it is
1:36:06
quality you get a lot in there so what you're getting for your Kickstarter is I think such a bargain for the effort that
1:36:12
you guys are put in uh so if I've got a figure here that I paint up for you I painted him in the colors of the
1:36:18
painting phase so he's not a faction that exists in your history
1:36:25
we're going to call him Steve because for some reason on the channel we keep referring to ourselves as Steve oh mate
1:36:30
this is amazing uh so yeah I've got my white armor uh I've not taken a photo of
1:36:36
him yet so I'll probably do anything yeah yeah stick it over oh it's so good but yeah so I just used a human head a
1:36:43
human head I'll tell what he's there for you guys he's pretty well glued um but yeah he's yours you can have him
1:36:49
I love how you do all the the battle scars and the weather because the ones you posted on is just a bit of sponge
1:36:57
like it's an easy thing
1:37:02
well I think going back to I guess one of the going full circle to talk when we're talking about a ninja star
1:37:08
something I love about these like I say is they're not I think I see lots of 3D companies
1:37:15
um and that there's just way too much detail on the Miniatures where I think I think this and
1:37:21
similar to like a Space Marine you have your big panels that you can yeah put markings on yourself you can put
1:37:27
weathering on yourself you could do loads of glazing on it if you wanted to like you really have a room on the
1:37:33
miniature to give it its own flavor which which I don't I don't see that often
1:37:39
um from other companies so I think what you guys have done is it's amazing it says TPP at the back oh I've noticed
1:37:45
yeah or it could be Terran planter uh planetary protection it could be whatever it could be whatever you want
1:37:50
to call it a toilet paper police the toilet paper please
1:37:57
yeah that guy's called Charming uh Captain Charming
1:38:07
that's the first time I've seen one of our models that hasn't got the helmet actually no that's that's true that's
1:38:14
weird yeah so it's obviously learning to model and humans being very difficult as I've said yeah faces just
1:38:21
cases yeah I'm modeling them I haven't even tried touching modeling a face
1:38:27
bring an alien face you don't know what you're looking at yes you don't know if it's wrong yeah yeah that's not that's
1:38:33
not even particularly why we did I liked I like the look of a faceless Army yeah yeah yeah yeah because even with a
1:38:39
helmet because everything else kind of has even space where he's doing except you still have the eyes still yeah you know yeah
1:38:44
everything has a face whereas this is just so there's something that when I looked
1:38:50
at the stuff you painted on your uh demo uh the thing that instantly clicked with me was even the humans looked a bit
1:38:56
alien in the way because they had like the black jet black glossy helmets and it would remind me of uh is it a widgety
1:39:02
grub
1:39:28
that's all using AK paints there as well nothing but 8K because they're uh again
1:39:34
used to like a new range of paints that we're playing around with and they've got some really nice colors and odds and finishes turbo dorks Nostalgia paints I
1:39:41
picked up last year and I literally have just managed to start using it a proper codex gray oh gunmetal of them I've got
1:39:48
codex gray off them and I was like those two colors were everything yeah yeah and uh I'll tell you what it layered the
1:39:54
Codex gray layered one of these so beautifully and finally I can't recommend it enough yeah it's it's a
1:40:00
beautiful paint range um it's really nice just to see the color of codex Greg if you want to highlight
1:40:07
any black who's always a codex gray codex gray dry brush it was perfect I was like yeah so I was like I'm getting
1:40:13
that amazing um I can see some of my cameras giving me some heat warnings now no worries
1:40:20
explosion yeah we might have to wrap up yeah well uh we'll put a picture I'll try and get one and post it on me grams
1:40:27
as well just get Pat on myself just do one with my phone before we go but that's yours to take uh thank you so
1:40:33
much for coming the show thank you for having us yes uh hits today because today is out this video is out your
1:40:38
Kickstart is live it's May the first it is May 1st today uh it is I expect you
1:40:43
to be you know selling out of everything that you'd ever expected to sell out of right you've made a meal I want it to be
1:40:49
that way hoping that happens um and I can't wait for the future personally because uh more games
1:40:55
expansions different game styles well the kickstarter is coming out with two added added game styles Mass objective
1:41:02
and wakazine and which changed the game entirely but all play Within the same rule set oh fantastic yeah awesome I
1:41:09
know we're wrapping up I'll just touch on that because it's really one of those yeah the wackers you know it's like a whack-a-mole from a Fairground so you
1:41:15
you set markers across the board and then this comes with like an additional 56 Miniatures yeah oh wow and then
1:41:22
through card draws and dice it tells you what creatures and how many of them pop up at various points that's why it's
1:41:29
trying to kill your enemy you're also trying to kill these score punches
1:41:38
you didn't whack them
1:41:45
yeah he's so annoying to play with obviously when you've got to run out and try and yeah and try and get these
1:41:50
things yeah then some of the movies some of the fight backers yeah it's interesting yeah I like that yeah there we go it also adds a bit of a yeah it
1:41:56
actually adds a bit of a solo element you could do it you could play a solo play against certain levels are quite
1:42:01
big actually uh I've and I've seen the last few years been asked quite a bit about that it doesn't really match what
1:42:07
we're doing but well yeah yeah that gives a it gives an element of it yeah sorry
1:42:13
that's the answer to these shows we just want to talk and talk but cameras apparently won't allow us because
1:42:18
they're just getting me yeah that's it well it's like if the battery doesn't run out I'm gonna write okay so I'll
1:42:24
plug it in and then it's just like no I'm gonna go overheat instead yeah and that's really dangerous because you can
1:42:29
end up losing the files yeah I'd use at this point the credits are scrolling with all our patrons oh of course don't
1:42:34
forget to like And subscribe and thank you patrons for being our patrons you are amazing we love you and obviously do
1:42:40
the kickstarter join war of Terror do it Terror
1:42:47
thank you very much guys yes thank you cheers thank you Pips

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