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2x Slayer Sword Winner Neil Hollis
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Jun 4, 2024
This week we talk to the loveliest, and currently most controversial man in Warhammer, two time Slayer Sword Winner, Neil Hollis! We talk through Neil's amazing painting career and get the the scoop on his golden winning entry that made use of an AI generated backdrop. Whilst this topic is certainly a contentious one we hope it offers a civil insight into Neil's thoughts and process. Join our Patreon: https://patreon.com/thepaintingphase Merch: https://thepaintingphase.creator-spring.com Streaming: https://www.twitch.tv/thepaintingphase01 Help Support the channel with our affiliate links: UK: https://elementgames.co.uk/?d=10835 UK & EU: https://affiliates.waylandgames.co.uk/idevaffiliate.php?id=1214 EUROPE: https://taschengelddieb.de/?affiliate=tpp US: use code paintingphase to get 10% off at https://www.goblinshut.com/ H&S Airbrush: https://harder-airbrush.net/?sca_ref=5530415.aOjOVt339C Gaahleri airbrush: https://www.gaahleri.com/?ref=Thepaintingphase We Print Miniatures: https://weprintminiatures.com/thepaintingphase THEPAINTINGPHASE for 10% off Follow us:
View Video Transcript
0:00
hello I'm Jeff and I'm Ross I'm Patrick and today we're joined by a man
0:06
who's not only won many a golden demon or a Slayer sword he's actually won two
0:13
Slayer swords The Marvelous Neil hul hello hello yay hello how are you yeah good
0:20
thank you how are you I'm good thank you how was your mid Journey down here today yeah very good good
0:27
hear what was the topic of this podcast we'll get to it don't worry it's all definitely about painting yeah yeah so
0:34
thank you very much for making the Jenny it's really appreciated we know it's a bit of a distance but it's very good of you to come down and bring all of these
0:41
marvelous Miniatures which will I'm sure get mentioned as we get going so as always the first big question we always
0:48
ask how did this all start Neil uh right so um being a school boy
0:56
mhm and I think it was space Crusade was my in yeah oh lovely yeah we got a copy
1:02
and a friend at school had space Crusade and I got space Crusade and then we played space Crusade and then there were
1:07
the painted there's a painted image images on the side yeah and then one day my M went guess what you don't you can
1:13
paint these and I and and then later on I went I found a shop where they sell
1:19
these and then yeah it started from there just started like getting into 40K second edition um and just got got heavily into
1:26
the painting side of it played but I just like the painting more than the playing um and that was my yeah my my
1:33
love really I got heavily into it and from what point did you start at um did
1:40
you paint initially were you were you a player did you did you have armies did you have yeah yeah I mean yeah if you
1:45
could call it an army cuz I think as a kid it was like I bought a dreadnut and I bought like a librarian and there was
1:52
never any troops all the on up I I was exactly the
1:57
same when I was younger Army composition what's that exactly I remember playing a game once and the son I played with when
2:02
you are meant to have like 25% troop so I went yeah don't worry about that so and yeah
2:08
so it's quite funny cuz now cuz now theot now 10th edition's finally caught up with your way of thinking exactly yeah just play with what you like so
2:15
yeah I I did have armies but I always enjoyed the painting side more than more than anything else that my love and did
2:21
before we got as far as competition painting for once of a better term um
2:26
were you just we was it just hobby of just enjoying painting for yourself and and then that's where it started to
2:32
refly yeah yeah so obviously um I just sort of like would I would spend hours and hours painting like a single
2:38
character and then I always used to like it cuz my friends would always like pick up and go oh that looks really good and stuff um and then eventually I thought I
2:46
wanted to get into the competition scene or I wanted to try and win a Golden demon because that's what the competition scene was back then and I
2:52
just remember like trying to go to Young Bloods and trying to win I never did never won a young Bloods but um going
2:57
there I think when I was like 14 and 15 trying to trying to win and yeah just got the bug for Golden demon well what
3:03
was your first exposure to Golden demon it was always in the white dwarfs that was my that was my main one and I just
3:09
remember there was always like really amazing paint jobs in there and there was you could look year on year and see
3:15
like you know really really cool things like you know you saw someone painted one model one year and then the following year they' done like another
3:22
conversion of the same chapter and stuff and I remember oh look that person oh they they did last year and like you
3:27
know really loving the whole conversion and custom paint jobs things who would you say um right back at the the
3:34
beginnings of your your your interest in it from say from the the professional side within the company who was your
3:41
painter who was who was your man well Mike m was the man back then yeah because I the I had the M Painting guide
3:48
and that was just that was the best thing in the world and uh yeah I just remember studying that over and over and
3:54
again and I think it was a very well thumbed copy that I had by the end of it and um that was sort of the the one I
4:00
can remember the one person I can remember from from back in the day well he comes up he's come up quite a lot over o over the the last few interviews
4:08
we've had with with painters is Mike gets always seems to get a mention Tommy
4:13
Tommy Su in our last of interview was very was very keen on him and uh and I
4:20
think um James Taro mentioned Michael MCC as well and U it's nice that he's
4:25
still about and he and he writes so eloquently about Payton as well even now you know Instagram is a real a real real
4:32
Joy so then if you didn't go into young Bloods when did the all first start well
4:38
I did enter young BLS oh you did yeah twice young BLS but I didn't win anything um and James T doesn't write r
4:45
that in your face oh yeah a lot of people I know well I one of the young Bloods back in 1998 I'm like oh good for
4:53
you James uh was saying that people don't count his young blood's golden
5:00
demon is winning like a a proper golden demon it's not a proper one is
5:10
it yeah I knew it was going to be controversial this show but I didn't it was going to start this
5:18
early we've lost him oh sorry guys due to technical difficulties we've lost P
5:24
why I just like already the idea that James Taro is watching this some point the future just shaking his f
5:30
yeah yeah never mind that's it that's why I I brought it up thinking like yeah
5:36
you mates you you you'll get behind him okay you're really good mates
5:41
it's I'm think you're thinking how James is going to react I'm thinking how the Americans are going to react because I don't think that that that like really
5:48
translates like why oh God controversy no we're going to get to the controversy that's but we'll uh slowly
5:56
easing you in yeah yeah we're applying the lube
6:01
yeah so complely you went into you went into young Bloods um and that was where
6:06
the bug started and how many times did how many times have you entered before
6:12
you had some level of success way too many uh I think I started entering around 95 right um and I entered
6:22
probably most years I had a little break in the middle but I so I've probably entered at a rough estimate probably 10
6:29
or 15 golden demons all right and I didn't win until like 2008 so from like
6:35
95 to 2008 is a pretty big gap um before I sort of actually had any success do
6:42
you um looking back on the one looking back on the entrances that you had
6:47
that didn't pick up anything do you look back on them and go oh yeah I could see
6:52
where I was I wasn't getting it right or uh yeah or do you or do you rightfully look back on them and go I was robbed I
6:59
yeah pretty yeah pretty much um there's a couple where I think um I
7:04
feel as I I should have got a finess pin or something like that and I didn't um but on the whole I can look back at all
7:11
my stuff and go oh ask crap then oh it's was a bit better then you can see the
7:17
progression through the years and I think it takes a while before you work out the recipe of what makes a good
7:23
entry because it takes a while to learn okay the judges like this sort of style they like this sort of look and it's got
7:30
to have this sort of story and you you sort of build all the blocks together and then you find the winning formula
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and then when you do you can just the success comes quite quickly after that it's quite interesting you say that
7:41
because I I um I'm I asked that as a question James was um I said do you feel
7:47
like there is uh within the golden demon there is a game you know that understand enough and
7:54
James said yes I think there is but he said I I don't feel like I ever try to
8:00
ENT that I always just paint for myself and then 100% there is a Formula yeah
8:06
and if you crack the formula you will do well at Golden demon and the people that
8:12
there are some painters that don't like they just paint their own thing do their own thing mad Styles and they don't do
8:19
very well yeah we and and that but then if they're happy doing that's fine but if you want to win a gold demon it's
8:25
like you know if if you're going to run the 100 meters yeah you want to start in this squatted position you train the way
8:32
to win you don't go I'll run backwards that that that'll win
8:38
me Style watch me go under these [Laughter]
8:45
headles I know it's long jum if I walk around the side yeah I through a broom
8:50
handle instead ofin um cuz we um and and I know I'm repeating myself but it
8:55
wasn't a conversation we'd had is that we um me and Ross were quite lucky enough to get actually hold of uh
9:01
milites from the gentleman whose real name I don't know but being flame on militates yes yeah and we've seen some
9:06
beautiful beautiful Miniatures actually held had them in our hands and looking at them and stunning and I remember
9:12
saying to him he didn't place I was in there I was I was in there for the for the for the awards and and he went and
9:19
then he just sort of flippantly in a nice flippant way went oh I never win cuz they don't like my style they don't
9:25
like how I stuff and it's that is a thing that is a thing there are certain and as a painting Community sort of you
9:33
know in there sort of with lots of people we often comment and we go well
9:38
so and so won't place because of the style but then the general public goes but they're brilliant they should win a
9:44
Golden demon and we will go They're not going to win a Golden demon but it's because we know we know the magic
9:50
formula we know the formula that's going to that the judges look for and if you're not playing to those rules you
9:57
it's an uphill struggle so it's slightly sad me it it is in a way but it's sort of gold demon is a very formulated
10:04
competition you know they want they they're they're doing a painted competition on their IP on how they want
10:11
to portray their Miniatures and if you're not really playing that game
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they're not really going to want to you know publicize what you what you do so it's a case of you know you know if you
10:23
know the rules to play Within and you play Within them you'll do well and if you're like a complete you know
10:30
outlier you're you're not going to do as well yeah is the uh is the magic formula something it'd be happy to talk about or
10:37
is it under lock and key is it like you and Richard Gray put the ropes on draw
10:42
Source it is like the magic circle I don't but I think like from from the few
10:49
demons I've been at I think like when you attend them and you start to speak to people and they start to give you
10:56
feedback that a lot of that if I'm right seem does it come naturally through the feedback kind of almost you know wav us
11:04
wav us like indoctrinated into this is this is the approach so it's slowly drip fed some people can look and see it
11:10
others kind of you know you kind of have to attend and pay your dues and and and and I mean there's elements of if you if
11:18
you attend enough competitions you will generally pick up the vibe of and people
11:23
will give you tips and you'll talk to people and you'll learn oh maybe I'll change this maybe I'll do that and you gradually build as a painter and you
11:30
become successful but then there are people that can just literally paint their first model Rock up to the
11:36
competition and go there go oh I won you know and then literally be that you know that talented lucky person which we
11:42
discussed in the past that you know there's my model oh fabulous gold thank you very much you know and it so it
11:48
doesn't necessarily mean you have to do this long trudge to try to win I mean
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that's feels like my journey has been right from like literally pounding away
11:59
year after year to to get to where I am and that's what sometimes I think people don't see they don't see the before my
12:06
first demon I'm might I lost probably 10 15 demons in a row and then once I won
12:11
my first one I think it was a gap until uh from 2008 I think it was like to
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2015 was my next win so yeah you know oh I won a demon I'm brilliant I'm going to
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I'm now going to be really good I'm I'm not I'm going you know it's going to take me another you know another seven
12:29
years before I win another one and but I entered every year yeah and I PL you know and I kept trying to improve
12:35
improve improve and I got to again then I got to a patch where then I was winning every year winning multiples
12:42
every year and I got to the sort of the heady Heights of where I now but it's a case of it's not like oh well yeah it's
12:48
really easy you know oh you're just going to do this thing and you're going to win you're going to have years of not
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winning like plowing away there's not like you got to 2008 oh I know the magic
12:59
formula now I've cracked it it's it's there's still Beyond there yeah yeah I
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mean there was I mean the way it worked was obviously that was the the 2008 is one that I did and I thought right okay
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I iron hands I I'll do more iron hands and what I'll do is I'll do them on an even bigger base this time and I'll do
13:17
10 of them and I'll put them in a drop pod and it's going to look amazing yeah and it didn't place so and I was like it
13:24
took me an entire year to to make that you know make that entry and I remember going oh didn't win and you know there
13:30
was all sorts of work went into that that I felt was way above what I'd done yeah but I obviously wasn't ticking the
13:37
right boxes you know it was you know and then it took a while before then I sort of won uh won again and then it feels as
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though I sort of learn each year every time I think I always say if you if you you learn more from losing than you do
13:51
from winning okay you know if you lose you really look at your piece you look
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well maybe I could have done that better maybe I could have done you get Fe back what do you think of this what do you think of that and people are really sort
14:02
of generous and saying you could have done this you could have done that when you win you go thank you very much and
14:07
you you walk off the stage and you don't ever you don't ever go oh what do you think I could have done better because you go well it won so I think it's it
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would look um it would look really like you are very very thirsty for for information if you went I know I won
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Gold but what would it can you give me feedback on why a funny story I've got as well
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because one of my friends Matt Kennedy um he was entering into one of the mini demons and he was he was before the
14:32
award ceremony and he was saying to one of the judges I'd really like some feedback on my piece and he was going
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and and and they said oh yeah they said we we'll do it after the awards and then he won the Slayer
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sword as theone need's your
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feedback br oh absolutely brilliant see they can have a laugh so yeah that's
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brilliant oh fantastic with with the um those two iron ham pieces um is there
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anything like when you said obviously you said obviously you weren't taking some of the boxes what do you think
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those may or may not have been um the funny thing is obviously I reentered that like and I think many
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years later and it did it did place um because you you know that's one of the great things you can do with obviously
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old entries is keep you know improving them and recycling them I think that year it was so when I entered the first
15:27
year it was a it was they always said like he always used to be Squad is a fairly weak category so if you if you
15:32
were looking to try and win your first demon you can aim for categories that are easier to win at to try and add add
15:38
add chance whereas then the following year it was I think a much more competitive year in Squad and the
15:44
feedback I got from that was you need to paint something other than Lin hands you've already done that you need to do
15:51
something else oh okay and that's the feedback I got was was try something else try something new so and and then
15:57
of course I did paint some more iron hands but I painted lots of you can probably tell that everything from there on has been quite different yeah so um
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yeah it's that thing of don't play safe you've got to try and you know do
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something different try something new okay how do you think the competition like the the people are against you how
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do you think the skills of your competition have grown in the last years like has it got would you say it's got a
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bit harder significantly harder massively harder um I would say gold
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demon at its current for form is the well it's the hardest it's ever been and it gets harder every year um and there's
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this constant up curve of how good everyone is and um it is it is scary how
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good then new people that come in are as well right you know you see people that
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have come in and I feel as I'm like an old veteran now of gold demon and even myself and Andy wardor we called all the
16:54
young kids that came over to Adept con with us as the Younglings because they were like literally they won they won Lo
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the demons and like oh the Younglings did really well time to get the lightsaber
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out and they you know they are they I think new painters come in at a much
17:11
higher level than we did because they've got so many resources online the equipment is so much better now you know
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paints are so much better than they were in the '90s and brushes are better and you can watch tutorials and you can go
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to classes and all I had was a magazine that I sat there went oh how do I do that yeah no it doesn't look like that
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you know it's funny to say that because he you know my mate my mate made the joke a while ago we were talking about
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Golden Tean and he said Army P Army level painters now
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would have been in with a shout yeah yeah yeah back in the '90s and funnily enough um my my mate has set up a an an
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eBay shop of getting rid of a lot of excess Games Workshop stuff that he's had for years and the other day he get
17:59
he went have a look through that how brilliant this is that they don't make them anymore was 2003's chapter approved
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it's got loads of rules for like CW with wings and all different thing and it just brings a loads of flavor to the
18:11
game and it had and I remember seeing them in the flesh uh a space Wolf Squad
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from 2002 maybe 2003 depends on when that book was produced and it was a
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space Wolf SC and at a squad and I remember them being on show in Games Workshop Liverpool mhm and he the guy
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used a lot of um corn Baza bodies for the bullet belts and stuff the old corn Baza uh Plastics and um when he looked
18:37
at they were dry brushed you know and you think look really good cuz had that
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scratchy sort of thing but they were blatantly dry brushed you know and you think God imagine now if you tend up
18:48
with that Squad and put that in and you think you know you realize that the you're absolutely right the equipment
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and the resources and just the Improvement in in basic skill now is so Far and Away what it was then you you
19:02
can you can improve quickly as well like before it used to be Troll and error that's how I learned to paint was try
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this thing I remember I remember the model that I learned how I could transition or blend with cuz I had a
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catachan jungle fighter and I back in the '90s everything was bright colors and I wanted his chainsaw to go from
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like red to Yellow up that way and I thought well I don't know how to blend all I'm going to do I'll just paint the stripes and I'll do that one red and
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I'll do that one a little bit of yellow add it and I'll add it in slowly slowly slowly and I did this like and I went
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ohed and I was likeing and so you only learned by Troll and error which meant
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that some things were so hard to learn because and now you go how do I do that thing and you you you Google it and then
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you get a load of tutorials and then you go on Instagram and you speak to a painter and say can you tell me how you painted that thing and I go yeah sure I
19:52
Ed these paints and I did this thing and you all right I'll do that whereas you know you couldn't do that in the '90s No
19:57
No the think best you had was if I remember um yeah back in the '90s we could go into the store and say hey can
20:03
you show me how to paint this and I think the only technique they knew in the store was how to paint gems that was it was like you know put a dark color
20:09
underneath and a black bit of the top with a white Dy in it done and that was the only thing I could paint back then
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because it's all they knew how to teach I remember that when I first went into I got any painting tutorials done in in a
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in a Games Workshop store them staff members were like Gods when I came to yeah you know I remember one of them
20:27
went oh you know doing faces and it was like yeah he said all right d with that you know whatever the old version of uh
20:32
warar flesh what it was and then he going yeah he says this brown ink thed down put you're
20:40
like was that Chestnut ink that was in the bottle back then I've still got a
20:45
bottle of it I remember taking my model into the local GW and going will you have a look at my model please you know
20:52
like as a young kid and then going oh yeah you should do this and you should do this and it was like that was the way of getting feedback was go into a store
20:58
ask staff member and they would give you some idea of what you should do and that was you know that's the only way do and
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they would they were like say they because you because you had access to nothing else other than them they were like the gods of Payton cuz you know no
21:10
one your mom or dad weren't going to go oh you know if he done my blending a bit more this or you know you went and seen
21:17
these other adults and even me I was talking to them as an adult cuz I didn't get into the hobby to was about 28 you
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but you are you still you still referred to what they knew more than you know cuz there's no other way to find that yeah
21:30
you had to learn by that really slow method yeah absolutely right Saturday
21:37
afternoon I actually remember going forward he's not there anymore but there used to be a spanic very lusciously
21:43
long-haired bearded Spanish gentleman who worked for uh heavy metal and he used to um he used to do pton lessons at
21:51
Warhammer worlds and I remember being like massively pleased was because I'd done a um a wolf priest and I'd managed
21:57
to do one of the instead of do the old just highlights I done a reflection going down the arm and he went oh that's
22:03
that's right that's how light bends on a on a on a cave and I remember being like massively impressed with myself you know
22:09
and you thinking there's God from upstairs but yeah it's it's it's it it
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is a very very different game now though isn't it you absolutely yeah yeah completely yeah so what um so obviously
22:23
you've got 2008 so what what is your golden demon winning Journey so so we
22:29
start there yeah so each demon uh I've got a lot of demons that I don't own
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anymore so my collection is fairly sparse um and these are available soon on the
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webam um so obviously around 20 2008 was when I I got back into serus competition
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painting I think it was like 2006 and try was having a go then 2008
22:53
had some success I think it was nothing then until 2015 which was like uh had I
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painted a ferris Manis and um I I took that in did quite well with that and then the mini demons um popped up and
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that was just like you know three demons a year which meant there was a lot of opportunity to go to
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competitions and then I won um several heresy weekenders and uh the Space
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Marine um uh Space Marine golden demon and so then I racked up quite a few um
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and then it was and then really again there was probably then a bit of a break and then it was really then I started
23:30
doing some other bits and pieces I I went to uh Crystal brush over in the states so before golden demon had gone
23:36
back toon I went to Crystal brush I done some like iron skulls and things like that um and then of course it my real
23:43
sort of notoriety was then really coming back to America for the Adept con um
23:49
gold demon which was the not this year one the last last year's one yeah yeah yeah um so that was my main M my big one
23:56
was where I won my Slayer sword and then obviously I've car carried on since then with uh other more controversial
24:03
pieces and we're coming to them so should we rip the bandage off should we just do it well there's before we get to
24:09
I'm I'm going to annoy the entire Audience by dragging this out because before we get to that we I do want to talk about Lazarus and the journey of
24:17
Lazarus Lazarus is a long journey everyone agrees with me now brilliant so so the long journey of Lazarus so so as
24:24
I understand it you went through months and months and months to develop a base to then remove it from a base and win a
24:30
Slayer sword do you want to so three Co times if anyone can
24:35
remember you know like before we had the world ended before they Chang they change batteries in the yeah yeah yeah
24:41
yeah when time was consistent um so I was working Lazarus well before um
24:46
before covid yeah and um at the time I was you know Lazarus was mainly painted
24:52
and then I was trying to work out what base I wanted and then I've got I brought some of the iterations with me
24:57
here cuz I've still got some of them but I think it was about seven in total that I went through um so first off I mean I
25:03
don't know if I can get this on camera don't know if you've got a camera but I got a closeup I I was making like a very basic sort of a window a window scene
25:10
and I went some steps with a window and I had it on a plin and it was like okay that'll you know that was that was
25:16
version one yeah then I was like okay well I want the window to be a bit bigger than that and I want to I want to
25:21
sort of changeed that around so then I started with like making some other PLS with some much bigger windows on and
25:28
that the ones I haven't got cuz I've cannibalized parts and bit and pieces and then I went actually I want a
25:33
massive window so then I made this very very large sort of display base where I'd made sort of part of the monastery
25:40
and there's steps and there's a window and there's another big window and then there's all ruins and I as you can see
25:46
painted up probably 70% of it and got quite far along with it and went maybe
25:51
that's a little bit big yeah scale that down a bit so then I decided that what I would do cuz I wanted the stained glass
25:57
effects in the window I went down the 3D printing route and I created a
26:05
of I created like a a cad of a of a stained glass window um extruded it all
26:12
out 3D printed it U and then I so that that was sort of like okay I've got the window bit now worked out so then I made
26:18
um a base for the the window to sit on um and I made that out of like model board and then again painted most of
26:24
that up then decided that the actual the detailing in the uh in the model board itself it model
26:31
board's great but then if you start going really fine onto it it all starts crumbling and sort of breaking away so I
26:37
couldn't get it as intricate as I wanted it to be so then I went back to drawing board and then 3D printed the the actual
26:43
Basse part again uh and that's where it sort of brings me up to my my first go
26:49
at Golden demon with Lazarus so I created this this base here that Lazarus was on um two parts of a you know a 3D
26:57
print uh printed acetate in between sandwiched airbrushed the back of the
27:03
acetate to sandwich in so you can so you get the white come through yeah um 3D
27:08
printed the Bas and I do love I love the fact it's all the different companies I it looks great yes yes so again that was
27:14
the design that I'd have all the different Dark Angel companies with a dark angel symbol in the middle um and
27:19
then I obviously put Lazarus on that took that to Gold demon
27:25
2022 the one in the one that was in not was the first one after Co yes because
27:32
it was the one that they held in Nottingham cuz yeah so um I I took that one to to
27:40
that event which was a crazy event I mean that was the first demon after Co and it competition it was Unreal um a
27:47
lot of people have a lot of time to paint it's amazing what like you know like a year of stuck in your home can do
27:54
um and that one was as probably a lot of people know um was sort of I put it into
28:00
the 40K single cuz that's why it was always meant to be single miniature was always wanted to be 40K single and as
28:05
you can tell I i' scaled down the base you know i' made the base smaller because I felt it was too big um put
28:11
that into 40K single and then I found out on the Sunday as we going found that the judges had then moved it so they'
28:17
taken out a 40K single and they moved it into diarama so not speaking to the judges I mean it's going to be probably
28:23
based on the fact of how large the base was you know it's a big base that's too big 40K single we're going to put it in
28:29
diarama but bear in mind that the rules are very loose when it comes to it's like an appropriate sized base so they
28:36
can just do that they can just take your model and go we think this is better in that category like uh yes yeah yeah they
28:42
they can they can very much sort of I mean obviously the judge's decision is always final but they can look at a
28:47
piece and go actually no that should be in this category or that should be in that category and in some demons models
28:52
have ping ponged between categories where it got moved into open and then got moved back out of open then got
28:58
moved into a different you know sometimes like you know it's moved about a lot so it got moved into diarama but
29:05
the problem with that piece is it's not a diarama yeah um the problem with it if you've got Lazarus just stood there in
29:10
front of a window that's not going to compete very well against you know crazy stuff going on and all these exciting
29:17
things so and that is sorry to stop you so we talked about this on our adapical video because I mean it would probably
29:23
help if we read the rules which we hav but like um things like diarama so we we
29:29
talked about like to us and I think we kind of agreed on this squad we think
29:35
should be you can take it off and play it a DI like I don't get the difference because obviously we we've got here the
29:40
exodite which will get too calm down audience um we'll we'll get to the exodite to me that that's more diaram
29:48
because that's not a playable piece and it's on a larger base so is that not I
29:54
don't can you explain like what's the difference between a diarama and a single miniature okay for us people with
30:00
opinions and knowledge yeah yes and I think that's two
30:07
Miniatures usually four if you include the fish we need a closeup we do usually the
30:16
way it works is they State the number of models that would be in a thing so in a
30:22
squad it's like should be at least at least three models and um it states in
30:29
40K single that any single monitor monitor model that is not um of like a
30:35
certain size uh would go in 40K single including anything that is mounted right
30:41
yeah okay so there you go so it being a mounted character means it has to go it
30:47
has to go in um 40K single right um and then the only question would be is is the base a bit over the top and should
30:54
be a diarama now I I would argue that that wasn't a diarama and I'd argue that
30:59
the exite isn't isn't a diarama because it's not really do the Basse isn't doing anything other than there for that model
31:05
to sort of stand there and be there a diarama for me wouldn't be about what the base is it would be about what's
31:10
going on on the base so two models interacting um some sort of vignette scene where you know something there's a
31:17
story happening and you can there's a story and you can tell it's a story piece that's how I sort of look at
31:23
diarama um like you said there is a blurred line now cuz we call it s drama
31:28
where you've got people that are entering Squad and they're putting them on very decorative basis and you're like
31:34
is it a diarama or is it a squad yeah you know and there is this blurred line now where it's hard to say what is and
31:40
what isn't um and that's a problem that the judges have to you're taking a but it's a problem for you guys potentially
31:46
as well because whenever you do something that's that's more extravagant you're taking a risk that it might be
31:53
seen because I I would say and I'm sure perhaps you would agree that is in in any ways as a single miniature more than
32:01
than what we had with the original Lazarus bace yes yeah right because at least that's got the story of once there
32:06
was some fish yes that's some narrative where is there you're right that that is just a he stood next to a window like
32:14
that's as much as you'll get out of it yeah a lot of people said when I obviously I hadn't shown the xite off
32:19
when I when I brought it along some people went you did not learn your
32:25
lesson that was going to lead into my question actually we you slightly sweating it um I was I I want to come
32:31
back to the how I I view gold demon but I view gold demon as a risk taking event
32:36
yeah because if you again we're talking about the rules right we're talking about the rules well you're a better man than me cuz I couldn't put that effort
32:42
into paint and then thought I screw it see how it goes you know I I mean and I know Pat has already mentioned this but
32:47
it's like a Formula 1 team hell yeah you are playing to the edge of the rules
32:53
because that gives you the best chance of winning you want that competitive advantage play Super safe and super
32:59
Bland and oh I don't want to break any rules you're really limiting what you're going to produce if you take it right to
33:06
the Limit sometimes you fail because you get told no you're not allowed to do that and sometimes you succeed and
33:13
people then get very angry that you've won yeah yeah um and that's pretty much how I view it it's a risk-taking element
33:18
I everything i' a lot of things I've entered I've taken a risk with how I've done them like lazar's Bas being very
33:25
big that didn't pay off but then I reworked it and it did pay off and massively yeah and there's there are
33:31
lots of things I've done in the past I've gone how can I make this different how can I make this stand out and that's where I've pushed it and it can be you
33:39
can win but you can also lose so yeah you know do you feel you would have been okay if you'd if you uh at adepticon
33:46
found that the exodite had been moved um I don't I I never thought the exodite would have been moved cool um there's
33:54
the other thing with the exite was I thought it might get dek D yeah that's
33:59
what that was the risk that was the risk element and I had it in my head as a 50/50 wow it's a long way to go to t a
34:06
50/50 man Mar your bravery yeah I mean hope you didn't tell the wife that before you went you know what this what
34:12
I'm going to Chicago this might go disqualified love why
34:17
um are we ready uh well we need I want go on say like the the rework of Lazarus
34:24
that won the Slayer sword um and that base in comparison is so minuscule yes
34:30
yeah and I remember I think that to me cuz I I'm sure people are aware that I'm
34:38
sort like newer to the Hobby and and sort of like looking at Golden demon I think that was the first sort of
34:43
re-entry that I was aware of yes um and at the time admittedly I was like so it
34:49
didn't place and then it you changed the base and you won like what's going on
34:55
there um but hearing more about the competition works and all that kind of thing and and and again with that bass
35:01
the beauty of it all being 3D printed was I went I will take that 3D print and
35:07
I will make it I'll cut this bit out and I will print that bit so it was great very it literally if you compare the two
35:14
it's exactly the same all it is is that that center part cut out printed there
35:19
you go so again it was a very easy job to do because yeah it was a case of just edit the file right get that printed and
35:25
then how how did it how did it feel winning that slay sword um that I mean that was a really a crazy one because it
35:32
would I I was over there with Andy wardo and Andy had an amazing piece that year
35:37
a really amazing piece and I was pretty sure he was going to win the Slayer sword with what he had and so was was it
35:44
gluto or yeah yeah yeah with the with the with the lovely Hammer pants yeah well I'll show you we'll get a p it's
35:50
gorgeous with a little rat in the back but go on yeah it was it was an amazing piece and I remember I mean I again it
35:55
is the curse of G demon sometimes cuz you'll get a lot of people say oh you're going to win you're going to win you're
36:01
going to win the Slayer sword and that's the worst thing because that when you don't win you feel even worse because everyone's been building you up felt
36:07
like there was a bit of that with there was a bit of that for the the the the Slayer sword entry at adepticon there
36:13
was a whisper of that already with with Andy's piece again yes yeah then that
36:18
and of course I was saying no Andy I think you've got to smoke this is the one and when they did the announcement I
36:24
was staring into Andy's eyes I was going like yeah you're going to and they called my name out and I went H
36:33
what that's not how you pronounce Andy sorry
36:38
mate anyway anyway and so yeah that was a very weird one for me because I wasn't expecting to win So that obviously makes
36:44
it even better when you do win because you're like oh my God i' you know I've won um so that was yeah it was a great
36:51
it was a great feeling obviously that was my second sword so I didn't feel you know it was a great feeling to win a second one and and um it was pretty cool
37:00
awesome yeah so anyway AI what the [ __ ] man there's the
37:11
thumbnail so so why why did you think it would be disqualified okay so let's go
37:17
back to the start with this one so absolutely um I had the exodite right so
37:22
I was trying to think of my next big piece right so I've done Lazarus I'm thinking what am I going to do now I
37:27
need something really something really impressive so I've then I you know I've had uh I had an idea actually was at the
37:35
adepticon preview show you know they things and they showed off the new
37:40
agodon Rider and I went oh there are nice I went what could I do with them and I went oh I could do an exodite with
37:47
them that' be cool so I started formulating this plan in my head and I thought well that's going to be really that's going to be a really cool
37:54
interesting thing to paint um so I started like you know formulating the model and building it all up and I
37:59
thought this is going to really hit people for six cuz obviously exodites seem to be super popular and games work
38:05
give them no love whatsoever like it's apparently it's something to do with the rights oh is it oh I I remember um in my
38:14
in my very brief time at Workshop um when the animation on Warhammer plus
38:20
came out called the exodite or something like that uh my manager at the time was say something and apparently it's
38:26
something to do with the rights and like all the various different older companies of workshop and this that and the other like how they got rid of
38:32
squats and stuff like that I I'm more than happy to be wrong um but that is
38:38
one of the rumors oh well yeah I mean so I thought this will be cool because people will go mad when they see that
38:43
you know uh you know and I used to watch the you know that the little previews little square ones whenever it was something that was a bit nondescript
38:50
you'd always see people going exodites it's going to be exodites I always thought oh well this then people are going to love this when I when I drop
38:56
this one um so I worked on it like you know quietly away and I had in my mind
39:01
that I wanted have been doing a backdrop because I felt the Lazarus piece want what I wanted to do a backdrop that's
39:07
what the window was meant to be backdrop to the model um and so I was like right I want to do I'll do about I really want
39:13
to do a backdrop I'm going to work this out and I had a few ideas of what I wanted the the the story that I wanted
39:18
to have for the model and all this sort of stuff has all these crazy ideas and I thought it' be cool to have a river it
39:24
cool to have some you know some fish and some resin and make really cool and on the backdrop piece I was like well I
39:30
want to have like you know a jungle scene I want Vines I want a river going through and I was very much um I'm very
39:37
much keen and into AI I think is a fabulous tool and I thought I've got an idea I could use something that no one's
39:43
ever used before I could put something on here that is going to be everyone's going to go ah first person to ever use
39:50
it isn't that amazing how about out for
39:55
you um and um so I sort of started working away on it and and bear in mind I've been working away on it pretty much
40:02
the whole year before the old adep con to the new adep con and um I was sort of
40:08
working away building it all um doing lots of work in AI to actually generate the piece that I wanted because again as
40:15
much as people might say oh this is really easy you just type a thing is so not easy yeah I mean I probably did 200
40:21
different prompts to get what I where to where I needed to be like you know generate a jungle with the river and
40:27
then you get no no I don't want generate a a Borneo jungle with a river and Vines no no no that's not it you and keep
40:33
doing it over and over again and like can you take this bit out can you make this bit bigger and formulating it took a very long time and the the one thing I
40:41
kept saying in my mind the reason I thought it would get disqualified was I didn't paint it onto the back onto the
40:47
actual backdrop I printed it and printed it yeah and I thought I thought well they they'll probably look at that and
40:53
go um that's printed he didn't paint that yeah in a painting he didn't paint
40:58
it okay we're going to we're going to disqualify this because it's not painted it's been printed and I thought oh it's
41:04
probably a 50/50 whether they consider that a good thing or a bad thing you know so I'm I was weighing it up and in
41:10
the end I went well if I'm doing this I want to do it to the purest way I could do it I.E AI print it put it on there
41:18
and of course I've added in like 3D elements coming out of there um you know I did a lot of work I even I touched up
41:24
certain areas with a brush and there was varnishing put filters over it you know there was a lot of work post production
41:31
after I generated the image been faster if you just actually painted the yeah yeah and and some people going oh it
41:36
should have all been out of focus and I was going I could have done that with an airbrush in like one night with an air
41:42
making a like a a blurred out image it would have been very easy to do this was probably harder to do than that um and I
41:49
honestly thought that most people the issue would be it's printed and not the it's AI yeah yeah is is where it sort of
41:58
kicked off from so of course when I'd taken it to the competition I was very open about what it was and what i' done
42:04
I was sort of like you know oh yeah did this and of course nothing was said nothing no and then it all it was the
42:12
online people that uh I think lost their mind about do you think the judges knew it was an AI image probably not I mean I
42:20
again I um I had no work in progress of this up on my um up on my Instagram um
42:27
there were a handful of people that knew because we've got like painting WhatsApp groups and things and I put up things
42:33
and I told them what I was doing and I was I was showing them the images I was generating and stuff so there were a
42:38
handful of people that knew but again with the judging side of it you don't generally go up to the judge and go oh
42:44
here's my piece by the way uh I use red this red here and I you don't you know
42:50
you don't give a breakdown of it you go here's my piece please please judge so there was there was some talk that there
42:56
was an issue with a backdrop um when the judging was happening and when I heard that I that that probably might be mine
43:03
yeah and that could mean that I've been disqualified so again on the awards ceremony I didn't know that if I was
43:09
going to win and I I was I stood up there at the front going might not with this because there there's been some
43:15
problems here so um I was I was I thought everything was fine it was only the uh the week or two that week after I
43:22
think it was yeah that it all went a bit nuts yeah yeah so yeah AI is a very sort
43:28
of divisive conversation at the moment I guess yes um and for myself I mean my AI
43:36
usage is the audio for this podcast there's a make better button in Adobe
43:42
Premier Pro and I go yeah I'd like my audio to sound a bit better and it does that for me um and then sometimes for
43:49
for video titles on chat GPT or something like that like I don't know what goes into making an image like that
43:56
I can imagine somebody watching this going yes but you didn't make that
44:01
yourself yeah again though so again I was looking into the legalities of it as
44:06
well cuz when I was creating I was thinking oh what you know what's the copyright here etc etc and I did just
44:12
some research and it states that whoever the UK law states whoever creates The
44:18
Prompt is deemed as the creator of that piece of AI and so I looked went well if
44:24
I'm doing the prompt and I'm the Creator I created yeah that piece of AI so I
44:30
know there's a lot of talk of um you know legalities of it on all you know
44:36
like plagiarism plagiarism and all this sort of stuff I looked into some like you know just Google like you know who
44:41
legally owns an AI generated image and all this sort of stuff and it was very much sort of it can't it's not
44:47
copyrighted it can't be copyrighted and the person the Creator would be the person that used the prompt and all this
44:53
sort of stuff so I looked at it very much from a rules standpoint and when I haven't broken any rules here I haven't
44:59
like you know used AI to break any R CU I I didn't pay much attention when I did it I went oh no I'm fine I'm you know
45:04
I've you know I'm well within my my yeah my limits to do it um and of course then
45:10
there was the whole massive feror that broke out afterwards were you shocked by
45:15
that uh in a way I was because when the first couple of comments come up I sort
45:21
of um I thought oh this is quite funny look there's some upset people on the internet
45:27
and I you know and that's when I did my my uh my post which people probably have
45:33
seen on there where I then used AI to respond to one of the people angry about
45:38
Ai and that did stoke the flame
45:44
somewhat and um the funny the funny thing of that was was um I I did that
45:49
thing and then you know my my Instagram's going quite wild and I I had a notification ping up on my Instagram
45:55
and it said would you like to limit comments and I went I Weir i' never I've
46:01
never seen this before and I I I didn't really pay much attention I just hit yeah whatever cuz I was trying to read what was going on yeah and then I
46:06
realized what Instagram was doing was going we'll take all the swey ones away
46:11
they're trying to protect you and then then later on it was like would you like to review these comments and I went on
46:17
there and this is where you're going to need your bleep machine I I I use it less and less it's quite fun i s
46:27
and he was like you you you effing this and I was going oo this is a bit
46:34
spicy and that's when I went I love to yeah and I pretty much went I live
46:41
internet alone for a few weeks and I yeah it was it was just quite funny because it was all kicking off and I I
46:48
find it quite funny you know when people get angry online and they're all raging I I just want to laugh at it and think
46:55
why what are you getting upset about you know it's one of those things I think Tommy Tommy said something um in the
47:02
chat when he was there and he and he talked about people getting mad about how other people do their Hobby and his
47:10
response was just [ __ ] off when it's it's your hobby don't
47:16
leave someone alone doing their Hobby and he was yeah he just he he was he had
47:22
yeah but you're right that was that was was a lovely manun in tones I try to think about in in lots of Elements of
47:29
Life think about how PE people not myself think about things like and and
47:35
all that sort of stuff and like if I was looking at that piece part of me would go oh it's a painting competition and
47:41
it's like it's not painted so like there's that I can fully understand
47:46
someone thinking that um but then also if it's a miniature painting competition like do the backdrops yeah like do they
47:55
do they matter that much the funny thing was was the rage seemed to be very confused it wasn't all angled at the
48:02
same the same thing so okay you had some people saying that I only I cheated
48:08
because the only reason I had won was cuz I had used Ai and then there were some people flawlessly painted
48:16
fish um and then there were some people angry that um not because I'd won but
48:21
because AI is theft AI is theft and that I should be asham because I've used
48:26
stolen imagery yeah and then some people were also saying that i' broken the rules and therefore I should not have
48:33
won because i' broken the rules and the the best one about that was was they were taking screenshots of the golden
48:39
demon rules and where they'd use a section where they talked about background of the piece where they're
48:44
talking about you know the fluff the the flavor like you know Space Marines Ultra
48:49
Marines should always be painted blue you but going see it clearly says background it clearly no no they're not
48:57
talking about the backdrop they're talking about of the law about going see he broke the rules he broke the rules
49:02
and I'm going no I didn't break the rules that you know you're completely getting the wrong end of the stick so there's this very confused argument
49:09
where some people are angry at this thing some people are angry at that thing and but it all merged into one and
49:15
of course then you get lots of DMS and people angry but then you're getting some people going you all right everything okay you know and and people
49:23
that I've never like those ones yeah and people that I've never spoken Spen to online before like quite well-known
49:28
painters uh saying oh by the way you know we we're with you you know it's
49:34
it's it's just a all you have you've done nothing wrong don't let them get you down so there were there were good
49:39
elements to it as well as all the negativity that was flying around so I was fine with it how bad did it get
49:47
uh I had some really nasty DMS so like you know some really really vical like
49:54
almost shouting shouting into the void sort of you know I had to give back all my
49:59
Awards and slay swords and never paint again I should be absolutely ashamed of myself and all of this sort of stuff I'm
50:06
going wow it's a painting competition yeah my big my big question with regards
50:12
to it um do you regret it no not one bit I
50:19
I I I stand by and as you guys know I I recently took it to another painting
50:24
competition yes and and Ed it into that pained competition with with zero [ __ ]
50:31
because to to the point in which Andy Ward said cuz I originally just entered
50:37
that one piece into the competition he went please mate ENT some other bits he went cuz I really don't want to have
50:42
that ra and I entered it into the no and I entered it as the exodite but with a
50:48
capital A and an i in the exodite brilant you love it seem to love it on
50:56
so I really you know for me I I'm not worried about it at all and at the no I
51:01
had obviously a lot of people coming up and talking to me about it which was was quite and I was you know happy to talk
51:07
to everyone angry In the Flesh nope I I mean let's face it the the people that are angry are on the internet are a
51:14
certain type of person and keyboard Warriors I think we call them virgins but they're they they're very get cancel
51:22
the but they you know so if you'd like to direct your complaints to
51:27
make sure we put yeah make sure we put his Instagram up in the uh the in The Links at the bottom people get angry
51:34
about it but the real real angry people um are you know never going to come up
51:39
to you face to face talk to you and most of the people as well like well-known painters that I've people have told me
51:45
oh so and so is really upset about your piece come say I've spoken to them and they've gone yeah well you know I really
51:52
preferred it if you'd painted that backdrop and i' gone yeah I get that I went but I didn't want to do that I
51:59
wanted to do it this way and yeah and then they go oh yeah okay you know so it
52:05
there's a lot of anger but then there's not you know cuz people aren't no one has come up into my face and shouted at
52:10
me yet and and the best bit of the M I think I had about nine or 10 people come up to me and to say and every was can I
52:16
speak to you about your entry and I went yeah sure and he' be like how did you do this AI why did you do the AR this way
52:22
and I explain I was talking to everyone about it and then one guy at the very end of the N went and he looked a little
52:27
bit like he came on can I speak to you about your entry and my mate went oh here we go yeah and he went the resin on
52:33
your base a how did you do how did you make it so the resin doesn't climb up that s and I went oh not ey
52:42
question and yeah so it was nice to speak to everyone about it but like I said most people are fine with it how
52:48
you don't get in that level of of of anger for without me devaluing it
52:54
painting Toy Soldiers What did your other half think she doesn't
53:00
care probably go if you been my wife go what's your own fault do first please my
53:05
wife doesn't really pay much attention to what I do in the hobby uh and in fact it's more of an annoyance to her than
53:11
anything else so I think she' be quite glad that I was getting a comeuppence
53:16
from put him off doing it again yeah teach him to go to Chicago CU I think this this adepticon
53:24
has been quite sort of arguably controversial um
53:31
for AI for what the Slayer sword winning piece potentially the reverse thing how
53:38
was that done yeah 3D printing's been a part of it and there's um there's rules
53:43
on 3D printing isn't there so you can 3D print stuff but yeah the rules so the rules Clearly say you're more than welcome to use a 3D printer there's
53:50
nothing wrong with 3D printing in Gold demon uh the only caveat that they've now brought in bear in mind this is a
53:56
rule that's only just come out right is that if an item has been 3D printed or
54:02
it has to be sculpted by the painter yeah so okay so commissions are out now as well so what they basically stopped
54:08
was very good experienced painters teaming up with massively clever
54:13
sculptor creating major one-off pieces that you can't really compete at if
54:18
you're just just a painter and it I I I quite like the rule because I don't know any sculptors and I can sculpt very
54:24
basic things and if you went to that sculptor that sculpt that amazing piece and went oh could you make me a so and
54:30
so they' go no I only work with so and so so you you're at a disadvantage
54:36
because you can't compete on the same on a Level Playing Field so in some ways now it feels a bit fairer because
54:42
they're saying yeah if oh yeah 3D print it or you like and sculpt it if you like but you sculpt it rather than someone
54:48
else sculpt it yeah so I get that role it's unfortunate I know someone who's working on a 3D printed piece that was
54:56
um um commission sculpted and I was so excited to see that enter a competition but now obviously it can't because it
55:02
wasn't sculpted by the artist The key thing is though if you do do that it's fine enter it into a different
55:07
competition yeah there's loads there's tons of competitions it just you can't take it to a golden demon you know mo
55:15
Monty uh scale model challenge there's tons of them yeah and just take it to those I actually was reading a message
55:23
someone said a little while back saying um I don't think it's in the spirit of the game that if you've won um at Golden
55:30
demon uh you should ever take that mini to any other ping competition and I thought that was
55:35
ridiculous because I thought the amount of time it takes yeah yeah it only gets to be seen once yeah they used to be in
55:42
Crystal brush their rule used to state that to enter the crystal brush the piece could not have been entered into a
55:48
previous competition and that it couldn't have been publicized so to try and make theirs all super un so if you
55:56
did the whole thing of taking you had to do crystal brush first get that done and then go g demon and all the other ones
56:02
you wanted to do so just to make sure that you had a Unique Piece at the start sort of thing but yeah it's crazy
56:07
because you could you know I spent a whole year doing the exodite and if you then said you can enter it into one
56:13
competition You' be like oh it's a bit of a waste I think there probably is a time though when something's been entered so many times to so many
56:19
competitions like does it get a bit old hat like we've seen that I've seen some artists go what I would say is beyond
56:27
the norm in regard to entries and I'm even I'm like it's fantastic it's a great piece but do something new do
56:35
something original there's there's an element of re-entries in Demon where you can go okay that didn't place I will
56:41
rework it and change it I've done that a fair few times obviously Lazarus being the most notable but the dark Elder guy
56:47
on the bridge I took him to Crystal brush he got a silver took him to Golden demon where he didn't place and the
56:54
feedback was that they didn't like the what the head the way I painted the face I removed that head and did a whole new
57:01
one then when I took him to adepticon when uh Lazarus won he I put that into
57:06
open I got silver for in open so if you're willing to put extra work into it it can do something but then there's an
57:12
element where sometimes you just need to retire something or retire something it goes past the point of being viable you
57:19
know if you've entered it four or five times you probably bested offing up on that and doing something else but if you
57:25
feel as like just off the mark because of something small you should maybe rework it and try again but maybe not
57:33
try over and over I'd love to see um like say like if you'd won Gold and you
57:39
I'm going to rework it cuz I want to win the Slayer sword or well you're not allowed to do that oh you're not against
57:45
the rules yeah if if you if you get a trophy is that right you cannot if you
57:50
if you if a model has one A Trophy placed in any gold demon it then is deemed unlegible be entered into another
57:57
G okay fair which I think is a good way of stopping maybe a few people with super pieces maybe going I'll do us
58:05
demon and I'll do UK demon I'll do European demon and going a wall space for the swords yeah
58:12
exactly yeah so there a they're trying obviously limit it that way do you
58:17
anticipate because of this and because of I guess like the the negative sort of
58:24
backlash to it do you anticipate rule change oh yeah 100% yeah yeah yeah I I
58:29
I'm I would have thought that by the time we come around to Gold de Germany which is in October time the ru pack
58:35
will be updated again they regularly update it and there will be a piece in there probably about something that you
58:41
know back like you know everything has to be painted or there's an element that
58:46
you know they they stop printed things so I don't think they'll mention AI but
58:51
I think they'll do it in a way that stops you from printing a backdrop and you it so therefore it will kill that
58:58
out of the is that the first printed backdrop that you've ever seen yes as far as I know yeah I don't think anyone
59:04
else has done a printed backdrop um as far as I know but there might be there might be something there I don't know if anyone's going to try it again if I'm
59:11
honest here they did they might be silly because I think that for me and
59:18
and we we talked about this before um is this whole thing of like saying oh well you know AI it's stolen art yes yeah
59:24
because it's it's an amalgam of lots of people's pieces of Art and brought together and I think I think that to me
59:32
doesn't hold water on the grounds the fact that if you um if you decid that you are
59:37
entering John blanchers black Templar on a hill from Third Edition yeah yeah yeah
59:43
well it the composition and the design and who stood where has already been designed by somebody else and then you
59:49
mimic it yeah yeah yeah completely you haven't thought it up yourself yeah yeah you are copying a pre-existent piece of
59:55
art you're just changing the medium and that is how you done it as artists that's generally how we work as well if
1:00:01
you think about it you want to do something you find inspiration yeah you adapt it and you make your own thing
1:00:07
which is pretty much like how the AI is going you want a thing I can see these things that are similar and I will masch
1:00:12
them together and make what you want and the the the AI theft piece I think you can get deeper into it because I use mid
1:00:19
Journey for mine and I know there's a lot of legality problems with mid Journey like you know there's a lot of people suing mid Journey artists suing
1:00:26
them because of they're saying that they've stolen their artwork Etc but then there's AI art that is completely
1:00:34
legitimate that has no issue so um Adobe Firefly only uses their own copyrighted
1:00:39
material so if you use Adobe Firefly you are completely you know absolved of that
1:00:44
issue same with Getty Images they now have their own AI only using their own
1:00:52
copyrighted huge catalog so if you think that you could say that oh AI is theft
1:00:58
can you argue that if it was made with Getty Images or if it was made by a de Firefly is is I try and think of the
1:01:06
argument as like I wouldn't be able to paint a
1:01:12
backdrop that well probably ever um but
1:01:17
I might be able to if I put the time in do the prompts and get that M um so like
1:01:25
say for someone like myself if I entered golden demon with like that yellow monstrosity um that I painted um and
1:01:32
it's just awful but then put a printed backdrop in as someone go well you're cheating and it's like yes I am because
1:01:39
I'm crap um I don't know where I'm going
1:01:45
um is there less skill involved well yeah I I suppose there's an argument about skill level right there's there's an argument to say that if you're using
1:01:52
AI you're you're you it's not hard to do I I would argue it is harder to do than people think because i' I've never tried
1:01:59
it's it's actually got a lot harder to get it to produce what you want you know sometimes it's like talking to a toddler and get do what you want to do go you no
1:02:05
no I didn't mean it like that do this thing um but then there's also the argument I'd also say is there's lots of
1:02:11
other things that you could say you know people used to say airbrushing was cheating yeah using an airbrush is cheating everyone used to say that oh
1:02:18
it's too easy you shouldn't use an airbrush and competition pieces it's too easy some people could say that using um
1:02:24
some sort of CAD to make 3D prints well that's cheating you're using computer to do it and you aren't sitting there with
1:02:30
putty and sculpting it yourself there there's lots of things that people will say well that's that's just easy that's
1:02:36
cheating but is it though you know there's there's an art to it there was a good analogy of that the other day I um
1:02:41
I've been looking at this uh app for trying to get people to become mountain
1:02:46
bike fit all right and there was a guy was he was talking a little bit about about it and um talking about the
1:02:54
people's opinions on things and it was like oh well if you ride an electric mountain bike you're cheating yeah and
1:03:01
he said if you're on a mountain bike and it's getting you out the house but then he says if you take my bike he says
1:03:09
which has no electrical ability and we take my bik to bike to
1:03:15
1992 and we stand it against a mountain biker bike then and they go disc brakes
1:03:20
29in wheels on Allo this this that and the other and he said and I threw it
1:03:26
down a hill against somebody riding a 1992 bike he said someone would tell me
1:03:32
I'm cheating and he said and I don't have any electric Hub helping me yeah but it'd be based on the weight and and
1:03:39
what the bike's ability to be able to deal with and this is the thing isn't it it we don't stand still and you know and
1:03:47
and I know the fact that when you boil it down to it's most basic of things paint on a
1:03:53
brush is virtually as old as Blum time but we you know and and that's the at
1:03:59
its core that's what we do but the whole world has changed around that just can't sit still on it I mean if you think
1:04:05
about it oh using is using transfers is that cheating well I said is you're using a printed thing on a Model um you
1:04:13
know there so there's lots of arguments because you've not painted it you haven't painted that if you put a transfer on but I've seen lots of people win a demon with a vehicle with
1:04:20
transfers on yeah is actually so then you get to this thing of is it or is it a tool you know and that's how I see AI
1:04:28
I see it as a tool you know I use it all the time you know can't be asked to write that email yeah say yes please but in a nice
1:04:35
way yeah I have a a friend who runs his videography business and all of his all of his emails like his responses or AI
1:04:44
yeah yeah and so I think it's a tool to be used I mean I don't think many people will be using it for miniature painting anytime soon
1:04:51
again I mean yeah it's interesting to see like what will happen cuz we don't know yet I guess at the time it be
1:04:58
interesting if the rules don't change to see if someone's got the B to following your to following your footsteps and you
1:05:05
all have to go up to them and go well done B good luck I pass the torch to you anyway you
1:05:11
got Instagram yeah i' i' i' I'd get I'd get rid of that for about a year or so
1:05:17
but I think all this conversation obviously does detract from the fact that it is still an exceptional piece of
1:05:23
work and you won Gold so well bloody done well this is the thing me laugh about it is the fact that it's amazing I
1:05:28
I I you know I'm lucky enough now to have seen it for the third time but it's you know it's going people raging and
1:05:35
you're going and without sorry while I blow Sunshine up your backside but going
1:05:41
oh going oh but it's Ai and you going well you mean that guy with the two Slayer swords may not have won if it
1:05:47
like let's put it into perspective you know what I mean if you no one had ever knew who you were yeah and then you'd
1:05:54
rocked up one of gold with a AI backdrop yeah I think there's a lot of people You' your stripes haven't you it's not
1:06:00
like it you know I mean I think a lot of people there was a few people especially online that had maybe entered 40K single
1:06:06
and hadn't won or hadn't placed and then maybe felt hard done by that someone had
1:06:12
placed but they cheated um not looking into the fact that I do have the
1:06:18
technical skill to be able to win a Golden demon yeah and that maybe there were other factors in their piece that
1:06:25
made them lose yeah you know so there's an element that people don't don't they see the rose tinted glasses well I should have won he
1:06:30
should have lost that's not fair if I was a reasonably competent competition painter and I was going into single 40K
1:06:37
my main would concern would be go bollock Neil hos as opposed to Neil Hollis has entered that with an AI print
1:06:43
and backdrop with you know I think the first bit covers the problem the second bit you know and I don't you know I you
1:06:49
know as much as I'm complimentary about your talent you know I'm not trying to portray it that way and this is like
1:06:55
it's getting a matter of perspective on the whole thing isn't it yeah yeah completely I think what you were saying earlier the the opinion whilst like you
1:07:02
say the the internet is noisy and and it's full of a lot of people with a lot of opinions but miniature painting
1:07:09
competitions are are like golf they're not football it's not one team versus another and this skill versus that this
1:07:16
is you versus you every time and you've got to get better than you last time and
1:07:21
then hopefully what you choose your approach is considered better by a what is pretty
1:07:28
much a random group of people against the other competitions so the only opinion I think that matters in regard
1:07:35
to whether this is okay or not is or is not okay is your peers is those people
1:07:40
within the competition who are going yeah if some of them come complain and start going judges AI blah blah if they
1:07:46
change the rules fine the rules are change but this isn't against the rules
1:07:51
AI is it's scary but I think people are not objecting to what it is they're objecting to the Future where creativity
1:08:00
is reduced yeah yeah that's the fear the for me I mean thinking about Ai and how
1:08:07
I would utilize it in the future is I think it's a great prototyping tool
1:08:12
where you could say okay I'm thinking of creating this piece okay you know create me this sort of scene yeah and generate
1:08:19
you know generate this thing in this scene get some ideas and inspiration from it and then you can use that and
1:08:25
create new interesting things I don't think the thing with AI I think someone
1:08:31
once told me like AI uh won't take your job but someone using AI will take your
1:08:36
job yeah and that's how I think you've got to look at it you know an if you
1:08:42
refuse to use it and you throw your toys out the pram and just scream and shout someone will come along and go I can do
1:08:48
that but I will make it better than you can and you
1:08:54
can't get in the way of like progression is going to happen regardless whether you like it or not yeah the love
1:09:01
smashing the the the machines up north that that worked out well for them didn't they yeah AB yeah yeah it's
1:09:07
exactly what it is just to go back on what you said there about saying it's like golf it's funny because I think on
1:09:13
a lot of Reason in a lot of ways golden demon the thing it most relates to is is playing at a tournament you
1:09:21
have to be at home work out your tournament list have a basic idea of
1:09:26
what you might play against but no concrete knowledge of what you're going to play against and understand what if
1:09:32
we go like you saying about understanding the rules of what's probably going to do well in Golden demon you've got a basic understanding
1:09:38
of what's probably going to be your optimized list for going into a tournaments but you still don't know
1:09:45
first game if you're playing against Orcs or if you're playing against Deus mechanics or whatever and you've got to figure it out haven't you and I think
1:09:52
when you paint your miniature it's very much in that same thing you can only paint it for yourself and the best of your ability and your knowledge cuz you
1:09:59
don't know what's going to be in there no yeah and that happens a lot you know where with a lot of painting groups now
1:10:04
you often get oh so and so is painting so and so for that category so you have an idea that what might be hot one year
1:10:11
or categories to avoid but you're right you you P you have an idea you build it you formulate it and you sometimes do
1:10:17
turn up on the day and go oh these other three amazing painters are in my category ah he like the the the who won
1:10:26
uh Slayer sword very cleverly in all his um work in progress with uh shots didn't
1:10:33
show The Mirror Image yeah yeah it was it was nicely painted nicely painted
1:10:39
vampire stood on the bit of land it wasn't until it turned up you're going oh I'm gone yeah and the funny thing was
1:10:46
I had people saying have you seen Alex D Santos's mirror piece and I kept going I looked on his Instagram and went what
1:10:51
are you talking about and it was only like the day
1:10:57
now I know what you mean yeah and again that's a fabulous concept you know like a really good idea really well executed
1:11:05
brilliantly painted because I you know I've competed against Alex in like you know Lazarus was gold and his entry was
1:11:12
silver that year he is a phenomenal painter so he's great concept he's
1:11:18
executed it brilliantly and he's painted it brilliantly so it's he's covered all
1:11:23
those bases you know he's covered he's found the magic formula and he's maxed it out so yeah I don't yeah you've got
1:11:30
to give him props for yeah KN he had to play the game yeah he took a risk as well and he took a risk he cheated it
1:11:37
was 3D printed imagine if he' also entered that
1:11:42
and he had an AI backdrop as well to go oh the internet would still be on fire
1:11:47
now would yeah is Warhammer over I think I think that's the thing to laugh at
1:11:53
though isn't it it's it's the term cheat like and and the good thing and you know I'm going to blow smoke up your ass now
1:11:59
not smoke um Sunshine um we'll do the smoke
1:12:05
later um no but it's the you're not going out there like hiding and you're not going out and just
1:12:12
Ai and keeping it quiet like people are coming to you and going that's Ai and it's yeah okay I'll talk about it
1:12:17
because if we don't talk about it we won't progress and move on it'll be that quiet little thing no one's already you
1:12:23
know and I'm fully aware of this 3D printing exists guys Shar horror yeah
1:12:29
exactly is there a podcast for that uh there's a really good YouTube channel what's it what's it called Fox Hammer
1:12:35
Fox Hammer Fox Hammer yeah um but yeah so so that exists but people are really just don't want to talk about it because
1:12:42
we don't want to upset Games Workshop and but actually yeah this exists and
1:12:48
not only does it exist it's it's I understand they uncomfort with it but it's winning your competitions guys and
1:12:54
and people are using this it's a viable tool and by hiding it by not talking
1:12:59
about it that isn't helping that isn't helping progress like you said there's no use crying over spilled milk the
1:13:06
cat's out of the bag you can't like with ey you can't put it back in it exists saying my uh I think yeah me and my dad
1:13:13
were having a conversation about uh I think it was like when the Trident submarines were getting renewed and nuclear weapons and and that sort of
1:13:19
stuff and he looked at me and he was like well you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube yeah
1:13:25
yeah yeah so i' always like that would would you like to see it now that you've
1:13:31
seen the reactions to it and whatnot but do you
1:13:37
think it should be something that goes on would you would you think if you if
1:13:42
if golden demon and they don't change the rules and say you've now set some sort of standard uh going forward would
1:13:49
you would you be happy or do you think I I I had if if if it was a thing of like
1:13:54
this is a fine thing to do I wouldn't have a problem with it again I would I would play to that limit yeah I would go
1:14:00
you're allowed to do this right how can I make mine the best of that then and and and utilize it I don't think that'll
1:14:06
happen I think they'll put a clever wording in that means that you're not to do it um but yeah if if the if the
1:14:14
ability is there to use it use a tool you should use the tool if you you know if you want to I mean you don't have to
1:14:20
but I always look for the edge I'm always looking for what can I do that someone's not done before what can I do
1:14:26
that's new and interesting you know if you look at the first feedback I ever got was you've already done IR hands you
1:14:33
need to do something different and that's pretty much what I've tried to push with lots of things I've done is
1:14:38
what's different what's new what's interesting um and why would you not use if someone said you can do this thing
1:14:44
then you should do it should use it you know what do you know what I I like from that responses now you know you're the
1:14:50
third you're the third painter that we've had on in in in recent in recent weeks and I think I like that your view
1:14:58
on it is that literally pushing it to the edge and you know and and you know
1:15:04
James doesn't uh approach it that way James Goes a different angle on it but I
1:15:10
like the idea and that you literally like I I I like The Bravery of going how
1:15:15
close can I get yeah yeah yeah and like say to go all the way to cuz you know we
1:15:21
we made the journey and you know and thankfully I was lucky enough to make the journey to Chicago on somebody else's wallet yes yeah yeah not on my
1:15:28
own Good Old Baron thanks Baron we love you very kindly took me
1:15:34
there and you know fed watered me and gave me somewhere to sleep and you know and it was a lovely and really an
1:15:39
experience that I'm very honored to have I've experienced but you know to get on a plane and go I might get knocked out
1:15:47
of this yeah yeah but I think you if it's very impressive to to to make that
1:15:53
decision also the the FP side to that is not pushing it to the edge right and think he might get disqualified or
1:15:59
playing it Ultra safe thinking well I probably won't place cuz there'll be other stuff there that will be better
1:16:04
what's worse you know not placing and going oh I could have pushed that a bit more or oh I might get disqualify cuz
1:16:11
I'm right at the edge of this you know I might so it's it's a similar sort of thing really uh yeah ask you a different
1:16:19
question altogether while it's in me brain you're going into whichever category it is you're end entering your
1:16:25
next uh miniature in whose name makes you sink when you realize they're in the
1:16:30
same category who's the first name to go no um okay so out of the group of
1:16:36
painters that I'm sort of I talk a lot with yeah we generally try and make sure we Dodge each other's c yeah it's a
1:16:43
Consortium it's a golden demon conspiracy you know the best of it is they W all out on
1:16:51
AI we do have a spreadsheet oh on and I bet it's 3D
1:16:57
printing there's your thumbnail the but yeah I would I would
1:17:04
say that if I if we all went for the same category are you coming for strokes now are you yeah if we all went for the
1:17:10
same category that's where it would be the hardest for me because if Rich gray
1:17:15
and Andy wardor and we're all in the same category you and start going this is going to be a tough one
1:17:23
you know and there are other I'm trying to think there are lot is that what you think you know I'll add another two more L to that and that en
1:17:31
di there's definitely um some of the so some of the people I know very well I wouldn't want to actively go up against
1:17:37
them if I had a choice you know if it's a case of you know we don't usually Clash but if we in the same category
1:17:44
it's always oh wow this is going to be a tough one yeah um is that because it's awkward or because you don't you don't
1:17:49
you just don't go against thing about it's awkward if one of you wins and one of you doesn't cuz suddenly you know
1:17:54
your good mates and then you're you know you're consoling your mates while you're also going yeah I want you know
1:18:01
so the for same Formula One team to go back there again yeah yeah so I mean
1:18:06
there there's that element to it but then there's it's also um you know like
1:18:13
myself Andy and Rich um we all have a different style yeah um that and it's
1:18:19
yeah so some so certain things you know that you know rich is going to go crazy on some probably on some freehand it's
1:18:25
going to have lots of minute detail it's going to have amazing NMM then Andy is
1:18:31
going to have probably much brighter colors it's going to have some great composition so there's elements that we're probably good at different
1:18:37
elements but then you're yeah yeah it'll be a very tricky one to sort of compete
1:18:43
what do you think when you talk about good and mm uh composition
1:18:48
freehand what do you think them guys think is your thing that they don't like to go up against I
1:18:58
I I wish I tell you what I I we this has
1:19:03
been I know they've said this a lot before because obviously Rich you no the
1:19:08
wrong way oh H Rick maneuver there we go there you go um so
1:19:17
seamless and we're back I'm just going to leave all
1:19:22
lay um one of the things they have they've spoke about a lot before is um
1:19:27
Rich full-time miniature painter right Andy now full-time miniature painter wasn't but is now yeah and they paint
1:19:35
every day of the week yeah however they don't get to paint their competition models every day of the
1:19:40
week they're having to paint the latest GDB stuff that they've been sent for content and create videos and paint
1:19:46
armies and rich is great at painting The Head and Shoulders of every miniature he gets but then not going any further yeah
1:19:53
and I have a full-time job and I can pick one model and paint it every night
1:19:58
four hours for an entire year and I have I've got that ability to focus in on
1:20:05
something for a massive amount of time and make it as good as possible where they will have to fit it in around all
1:20:11
the other stuff they're painting so I have I think an advantage that I can plow time into a project that they could
1:20:18
not afford to do now you know the exodite if you added up the hours and I can't even work it out it's ridiculous the amount of hours I spent on it
1:20:25
they could not have spent that many hours on a project because they would then not be making their content and they would not be making any money yeah
1:20:31
how squeaky bom was it doing the resin um not as bad as you think actually I I I did a lot of test costs
1:20:40
for the resin and um I mean the fun fact I got about that as well is the resin
1:20:46
was that good that tarot contacted me and then said what resin have you used that's amazing I was giving tarot tips
1:20:52
on resin which was quite cool um but so I did a few test casts um and I I went you
1:20:59
know I bought a vacuum chamber and I was like you know did gassing all the resin and doing all this stuff worked out the
1:21:04
way I wanted to you know that I was using acetate for the barrier hot glue to hold the acetate in place i' refined
1:21:12
the process down so that when I did the cut when I actually poured it I was actually quite stressfree because I done
1:21:18
so much prep into it that I did it and then it came out and I was super happy with it and then I sort of sanded it all
1:21:25
back and then polished it all up and it came out exactly how I wanted it to apparently it can still be a bit like
1:21:32
witchcraft con it resin can just suddenly take on a mind of its own of what it's going to do yeah I mean i' the
1:21:37
product I found was a really I mean it's a it's a product called glass cast so
1:21:42
it's very UV stable and it even when Tera was using it he was messaging me
1:21:48
like however have you found this with the bubbles and the stuff but it's I found it very easy to work with it has like a really long pot life on 36 hours
1:21:56
so you've got tons of time to try and get those bubbles out of there if there are in there oh great if you heat it
1:22:01
slightly the bubbles naturally just pop within the resin and it s they also sell
1:22:07
like a polishing compound for it so you sand it all back and then you go up to these super fine grits and then use this
1:22:12
Polishing Compound on it and it just is like glass wow super smooth it must be a
1:22:19
I know you're saying you feeling quite comfortable because but it must have some level of sweat to it because the fact that you've
1:22:25
you've you had to you commit to putting the fish in yeah and then you've what
1:22:30
you've painted that's got to be in it I assume you leave don't go anywhere and then also it as we've talked as you
1:22:36
mentioned to me earlier it's it's a custom plint by tarot yes so it's like
1:22:42
it's all of all of them elements that are I see I just as a man who just lives on the brink of anxiety on a number of
1:22:47
things it's all the think of going how much to a paint what about this what that and then you the way the way I
1:22:53
tackle it is you obviously creating the the cutout bit the the's poured into you
1:22:59
know you you paint you just concentr the area you don't paint the rest of it you paint that bit you make that bit good
1:23:04
you paint the fish you put them in worst case scenario you have to rip that chunk of resin out and do that section again
1:23:09
yeah but you're not having to re you're not wasting the whole plin you just rip it out start again so you would just you
1:23:17
know so it it did work out but I was sanding a lot of it back like so the Rocks above the water line got heavily
1:23:23
blasted when I sanding the resin down so I had to resculpt some of them and then paint them in again because I had
1:23:29
painted the bits just above the waterline but then I had to redo it but that's quite minor once the resin's
1:23:36
poured and it's good then you don't mind reworking the rest of it you were talking about like you spend like four
1:23:42
hours in an evening doing this is this like your like I'm kind of curious as to your process is like do do you sit down
1:23:49
and maybe you put the Telly on and that sort of distracting you you just sit there pain pH on in the background yeah something like that
1:23:55
I mean he watches he qu my but that was he he listened on the
1:24:02
way up but uh like with like the tellon just
1:24:07
chilling out having a paint or are you laser focused this is me no noise maybe some classical music or something and
1:24:14
what is your i z i paint late at night very late at night I'll start 11:00 p.m.
1:24:19
paint through to maybe 2: a.m. wow so do a very late session so my my paint has evolved over the years when I before I
1:24:27
had kids it was a case of I would paint like you know after work and I would do
1:24:33
then my wife would be working away doing some stuff and I'd s and do some painting then we had kids and I couldn't do that anymore so my painting time has
1:24:39
moved at different different parts throughout the day and where I am now is
1:24:45
um do all the sort of you know household duties you have dinner you clean up and then my wife will start watching some TV
1:24:52
programs and about 11:00 when she's almost ready to go to bed I'll then start painting so I do a very late night
1:24:58
painting session and I'll usually just put something on in the background could be YouTube could be a podcast something
1:25:03
generally that I can just listen to rather than watch because obviously you don't want that distraction yeah like the painting face like the painting face
1:25:11
um other podcasts are never them but also to add that we also are on Spotify oh there you go if
1:25:17
you don't have to watch um and yeah so I'll generally listen to stuff and but I
1:25:23
find I'm pretty laser focused I me I like on the background cuz painting in silence is a bit weird but I I I like I
1:25:31
like it late at night now cuz it's quiet there's no other distractions going on you know the house is quiet so it's easy
1:25:38
to focus in on what I'm doing yeah I've done some stuff where I've tried to paint at work during a lunchtime but
1:25:43
there's too much yeah it's really hard and there's too many people that want to talk to you and I'll go watch that yeah
1:25:48
and then what's he doing he's fting Toy Soldiers would you then not get a lot of sleep if you have to yeah the problem I
1:25:56
get is I gen as I say I get up generally around sort of 6:30 7:00 wow um but
1:26:03
painting till 2: a.m. means it's quite a small amount of sleep yeah absolutely what I generally do is you know I might
1:26:08
have I don't paint on Friday night and I'm usually laying on a Saturday and all this sort of stuff to try and get my sleep back but as it gets closer to a
1:26:14
competition you're running out of time so you pay more and more and more and then it really starts to get to you like
1:26:20
you know you do late night after late night after late night getting up and then some times it's a case of take a couple of days holiday to try and yeah
1:26:27
you know Blitz through and get stuff done so it can be it's a real um endurance test to see if you've got the
1:26:33
time to be able to put into it but um it is I find it massively relaxing though
1:26:38
yeah when I do the painting I'm like so Zen and chilled out that when I then go to bed I'm just like and I'm I'm I'm
1:26:44
asleep in seconds whereas if I went to bed at 11:00 I would probably lay in bed
1:26:49
wide awake and be all be all stressed out so it chills me out count the hours you got left on gold yeah yeah need to
1:26:56
do that need to do that yeah there's um I think I one of the most interesting
1:27:02
thing it was when we had Richard on um a while ago and he introduced me to the
1:27:08
idea that he was in like a select you know Elite painters like yourself in
1:27:14
Golden demon um the the there's different Slayer swords
1:27:20
and some are better than the other yes uh we have two just off camera which TR if you Happ to to bring them in that
1:27:26
would be wonderful um because it was something that fascinated me be like
1:27:32
they win you win a sword cool You' be like oh well I don't like that sword I want I want another sword I'll ever get
1:27:39
gentlemen there we go yeah so and now we have someone in the room with the two
1:27:45
Slayer swords so I would be remiss not to ask uh which one's you have one of
1:27:51
each right like a a quote unquote bad one and well so yeah so there's there's there's
1:27:57
two things here number one there's the swords manufacturer changed over the years right so back in the '90s they
1:28:06
used to use Raven armories to make these swords and they were proper forged
1:28:11
swords that were like you know £5,000 a piece they were absolute worth oh my gosh and I think it was
1:28:20
2007 or to eight they went games Works went we're not going to spend money on these s anymore and they then went to
1:28:26
have found some cheap ones on in China um and the the one that's there is the cheap version that they got in China so
1:28:33
um they are and if you compare that to the the proper Slayer sword it's Worlds
1:28:38
Apart yeah I can imagine Absol world's a part you know it's just this is just a very cheap piece of Steel that they've
1:28:44
put some is that the one that's still making is that the one that's still handing out now or no so the new version is that one there so um the year I won
1:28:51
was the first year that they then upgraded the sword right so this is now made by a new company but I don't know
1:28:56
the name of it um and it's a it it's better quality than that one hey piece of it's still not you know as nice as
1:29:04
the Raven Armory swords they are five grand of Sword even I would be like they
1:29:09
are they are Beauty they are a thing to behold but it is a a step up from yeah
1:29:14
the old swords the the one thing I like about my My Sword I won was what they even did after this sword was they
1:29:21
engraved the golden demon bit in here all oh is that is that just printed on there my one is stickers and so so I I
1:29:28
am the only sticker sword winner so yeah all the ones tast to be
1:29:34
unique is yeah exactly I think what I love and and this might not be widely known unless you're in the room and or
1:29:40
you've been to one but whenever they hand it to you you have to you have to stand there we have to be silent for you while you you slowly put on your Globes
1:29:47
yes the train mail glove this isn't going to cut like unless you unless you start to S I thought the the gloves a
1:29:52
bit dramatic that was based off the old Raven armories really sharp which was sharp and then uh a well-known painter
1:30:00
which I can't remember which one it was held it up sliced his hand open can't paint anymore and then there was a
1:30:06
massive like health and safety oh my God and ever since that day you wear a CH mail glove they have to be careful they
1:30:12
have to be so careful don't do you do you mind I mean it's yours do you mind if I do the pose different
1:30:20
it dream come true next next year be next year next year I'm going to I'm
1:30:27
just I'm I'm going to well they do color 3D printers now so I'm going to get AI
1:30:32
yeah perect no joke I'm going to I'm going to get AI cuz you can get um AI model creators I'm going to get AI model
1:30:39
Creator to create the 3D model then I'm going to digitally paint it then I'm going to get it printed in color and I'm
1:30:45
going to enter that and win 2025 Slayer sword yeah there we go
1:30:51
do you remember you remember that guy who had that YouTube channel he was he a 3D printer do you remember when he was
1:30:58
assassinated hey you've got a push to the edge doesn't say in the rules I can't use a 3D printed colored
1:31:05
model I mean it doesn't yeah there we go there is one other thing with the Slayer swords cuz there is a a a hot a topic
1:31:11
where when they brought the mini demons in and they still gave out Slayer swords for them they were deemed to be a lower
1:31:18
caliber of as in you want a mini demon like a young blood yeah versus a a a
1:31:24
classic demon so there is that element to it as well where even though the sword's probably the same same sword but
1:31:30
but was deemed to be a lesser you know lesser win than uh where were the Where were the mini demons they were held all
1:31:37
over the place so um a lot of them were at Warhammer world the the heresy one was held in a hotel cuz it was part of
1:31:43
the heresy Weekender they ran do one of them for just for vehicles if I yeah
1:31:48
well the very first haris mini demon they did was demon tanks so you could only paint tank
1:31:54
so you had to paint either a tank or a tank Squadron or you know then all these different versions of tanks and so they
1:32:01
they always had a theme um some of them were hotly contested like the gold demon
1:32:06
Space Marines yeah was absolutely nuts it was just it was like a proper like full-on golden demon like lots of
1:32:14
highend painters were there it was super I feel like I'd love to go to that one like just you know limiting the the the
1:32:21
amount of type of model you can enter like I would hope it's tighter competition it does I mean it quite
1:32:28
often with enough categories it still meant there was a lot of stuff I mean the the one that was obviously deemed one of the worst was when they did um
1:32:34
The Forge World I think it was the Forge World open day one when it was all basically specialist games once but they
1:32:40
had categories there was a blood ball category and like you know and there was a net Commander category and they had a
1:32:48
category for every single game system yeah which meant there was so many categories that some of them were so SP
1:32:54
that it was a bit sort of like you know yeah you're going to win if you turn yeah yeah so it was it was deemed to be a bit of a lesser one so but I think
1:32:59
after that they sort of stopped doing the the mini demons and then we went back to this sort of system now where
1:33:05
you got sort of two two classic ones so it was UK and us but now it's Europe and US yeah yeah every and everyone's happy
1:33:12
about that yeah I'd say so most people are cuz one they're bigger events there's more things going on um makes
1:33:18
them a bit more prestigious the Americans hadn't had a g demon for such a long time I think it's right that
1:33:24
there's one in different it makes them it means that you haven't got enough pay loads of money to compete um and I think
1:33:32
most people enjoy them I think they're quite well received yeah and I you know it's a shame there's not one in the UK
1:33:37
and I think that's what you know it's easier for me to drive to that's why I'm upset yeah but I'm quite happy with it
1:33:43
being Europe and us for me that feels it makes that one probably more even though
1:33:49
the UK was always the biggest demon like the big most prestigious one having it as a Europe one makes it feel more
1:33:56
important I think cuz then you're saying every from Europe comes and competes versus UK demon makes it feel a little
1:34:03
bit yeah even though it wasn't it was it was the most hotly contested one it was it it feels more important very rely on
1:34:10
Games Workshop the only company that decides to have an idea that goes completely LLY against
1:34:16
[Laughter] brexit how many controversial topics can
1:34:22
we fit in one can we get the rogal da T what thoughts on female custodes no we're
1:34:29
[Applause] not don't give away Neil's next
1:34:35
Golden I think that female golden female custodies with an AI backdrop oh now
1:34:41
you're laughing I was going to use AI to create a female custodian that I would then use AI to sculpt yeah and
1:34:49
then print it in color I mean who can't win with that absolutely go yeah exactly
1:34:55
well I'm sorry like I just I need to say and I want to get this on camera the best thing about this sword is cuz it's got the curved Hilt it's like the sword
1:35:01
ofans from anyone know am I the only Thundercats fan well I was thinking Thundercats yeah yeah I want fantastic
1:35:09
if I look through this while I paint this should give me the powers of of Neil yeah that's not you're not going to
1:35:14
a to break have you consider quitting painting I never this was this was you
1:35:21
don't do painted tutorials do you to people there's a reason I show people won't know but if
1:35:27
we can get a photo up so you'll see it in a future video I did a a sketchy paint job that took like four hours and
1:35:33
I said to Neil what do you think of that CNC he's like first thing have you have you considered giving up Payton thanks I
1:35:38
know you were joking but it hurt you know when you hold that up and then mention Thundercat I thought to myself
1:35:44
do you know what I didn't think it was possible to be on the show and be embarrassed to be a geek wrong with
1:35:51
Thundercats wrong with Thundercats it was the whole up and hoping to transfer powers to his Payton skills yeah of
1:35:56
course it does OB it's a golden it's a Slayer this has got po not only is it a
1:36:03
Slayer sword this is one of the proper Slayer Swords not one of the weak ass Slayer swords as well yeah yeah I
1:36:08
already did away with the plaque as well well that actually was um they used to always give you out little plaques for
1:36:14
when you won a demon and then when I won the sword they gave you one for the sword and I thought what am I going to
1:36:19
do with this so I just stuck it to the hill oh okay yeah so they go they you go to winners day and then they would hand
1:36:24
out your little plaques and then would they give you one for winning the sword and you go well what do I stick that on
1:36:31
do they still have winers day no no no so there's no more plaques either no more plaques to be fair these probably
1:36:37
cost a bit yeah yeah maybe that's maybe they'll bring winners day back with the
1:36:42
most recent price increase that's why they've done it so they can afford to do that yeah that's
1:36:48
why they've done it yeah just so uh Neil can feel happy about in his way for
1:36:54
Golden dayway no but uh good luck so when
1:36:59
when's the next time we're going to see you at a demon Neil have you decided you going to do Spiel as long as my wife
1:37:05
doesn't see this I'm I'm planning on going to all I mean we've been recording for an hour and 40 minutes she'd
1:37:12
probably given up by now we the the contr the controversial
1:37:17
uh wife might find out questions we saved till quite L yeah she watched the first five minutes go oh that looks nice
1:37:22
to oh you're talking about your toys yeah I'm planning on going to um the the
1:37:29
spill um in Germany hopefully we'll see you there yeah hopefully I'll be I'll be at that one and um and then I'm planning
1:37:35
on adeps conon next year with with a venue change I'm not sure yet it's if I
1:37:42
want I'll wait until and I'll wait till they announce golden demon at the event and then I'll look up
1:37:50
flight prices and the whole problem of getting to Milwaukee versus getting and then weigh it up but I I'd
1:37:57
like to go back um but it was yeah it was I'm a bit worried the Magic's going
1:38:02
to disappear you know the whole I mean you've been there yeah cabinets open 24
1:38:08
hours a day it's got a course A Center isn't it 2 a.m. you're having a p and
1:38:14
you go oh let's going have a walk around the demon cabinets and then there's a few people there that you chat to and it's really a great atmosphere versus
1:38:21
Convention Center shut to eight please all leave and then you're stuck in Milwaukee going well what do we do now
1:38:27
you know it's so I'm hoping the magic stays but um and and right like I've not even thought like getting there like
1:38:33
Ohad is a very a very International Airport Chicago is a big Hub yeah yeah like whereas Milwaukee I know it's an
1:38:40
hour you have to go to Chicago I get the impression that I spoke to someone the other day and they said the best option
1:38:46
really is to just still go to O'Hare and and the bullet on the The Journey on the
1:38:51
taxi two problem I've got that I think as well it's the whole getting back CU you could do the late Sunday night
1:38:58
flight yeah and from O'Hare and being in Chicago get to that easy and fly back whereas getting from Milwaukee to that
1:39:04
award ceremony trying to get back from Milwaukee to oare it's super tight so it's whether then you have to stay an
1:39:10
extra night because of that and then more expense so yeah yeah which is the the basically the flight we always end
1:39:16
up on isn't it is the Monday night flight yeah yeah yeah yeah excellent uh so we have some questions from our
1:39:22
patrons okay um quite a lot of them were about Ai and and bits and Bobs like that
1:39:28
which I feel I feel like we've um we've we've covered should we acknowledge you
1:39:34
should we acknowledge the people who asked that's a nicest way to do one of them was why you're a dick and why you cheating with AI but that that was my
1:39:43
question yeah so uh twist trit twiz tit
1:39:48
tree uh asked a question about AI lesson asked a question about AI
1:39:54
um and oh so maybe it was only the two oh there we go yeah there we go so thank
1:39:59
you for those questions hopefully we've answered them um yeah some of the wording is uh uh spicy yeah like
1:40:09
Sinister undertones and like this the first time I met you I I don't yeah it
1:40:14
feels mean yeah he has got two swords mate be careful yeah yeah that's why I've got the two of you holding this we
1:40:21
don't want to let go now so nice um so Tams and Mark ask how sharp are those
1:40:26
Slayer swords have you slain anything with them yet as you say they're blunt
1:40:31
as anything aren't they there's nothing you could bludgeon but maybe not swice they they're pointy pointy end you could
1:40:38
stabby stabby but you spcy yeah no SLI spicy they're quite long for stabby stabby aren't they yeah you have to have
1:40:44
some good forearm strength yeah we'll have a fight in the car part with them later yeah yeah what over you want yeah
1:40:51
yeah yeah uh um uh Hugh asks how do you fix mistakes without caking on
1:40:58
paint um yeah so I would say I mean if you're painting with very thin layers
1:41:04
you can generally go over it a few times quite a few times before it will cake on if you is getting cakey then you you
1:41:10
haven't W it down enough but um yeah I and also the more you paint the less
1:41:16
mistakes you end up making yeah because you get more control and get more refined so you do make the odd mistake
1:41:22
but it's usually a very Quick Fix and a lot of time I find that if I have slipped um for whatever reason I usually
1:41:28
find I can get it off with a bit of water before it even yeah I'm getting with that now hold on like okay that's
1:41:34
gone right try let that dry do that a bit again yeah so I mean even to the stage where I almost felt as I found a
1:41:40
cheek code with lazarus's cl Cape so I blended up the red and i' gone over with so many glazes it had gone really glossy
1:41:48
you know where you keep glazing keep glazing keep glazing and I thought well I want to put some freehand on here but
1:41:53
of course then you're you're in the gamble of oh if I put that on and I get it in the wrong place I've got to try
1:41:59
and reglaze all this red and it's not going to look right where I paint I started painting on the symbol I went oh
1:42:04
it doesn't look right but where the paint was so glossy I could reactivate the white freehand with water and rub it
1:42:12
out so it was like having a magic erasor I was just going that bit disappear and that bit disappear then I'd paint
1:42:18
another bit and go that's not quite right that bit disappear that bit disappear so I could keep going over and
1:42:23
over it but with like correcting my mistakes I I did look at the back of that cloak and like I'm not going to ask
1:42:29
the question cuz I know the answer but in my head I was just like as if that's freehand that's just
1:42:36
insane it's incredible it's so clean we we watched him like you nipped over last year to the artist Opus booth and we
1:42:42
just sat there in like an hour he just knocked out like a was it a shield like a sword it I was and I was
1:42:49
like but I it was the same Dark Angel symbol which i' been so you'd spent so
1:42:55
long so long doing yeah it was just like I'll do that bit then that bit then that bit so it was all preone it already it
1:43:01
had the the waves of the rope in even though you just done it on 2D I've got a follow on about fixing mistakes we've
1:43:07
talked about this before if you're happy to talk about it is there something about lazarus's
1:43:13
backpack yeah yeah there is a story behind lazarus's backpack because I I I
1:43:18
did a thing first where um I had a tip from a heavy metal painter once where he said if you're painting a competition
1:43:24
piece uh buy two of the model build one have one so when you're painting in in subassembly you can tell where all the
1:43:31
bits sit so you doing all the light in the right places and volumes yeah good tip so I bought two um and then I was
1:43:38
painting the backpack and then the top part of the non metallic was going it had a bit of a weird texture to it that
1:43:44
I couldn't quite work out where it come from and I thought at the time well it could have been maybe from the undercoat maybe the undercoat gone on a bit grainy
1:43:51
so I thought I'd try and strip it so I just thought I'll try and just strip the top bit rather than strip the whole
1:43:56
backpack that I painted so I tried doing that that doesn't work that went horribly wrong and I stripped it and
1:44:03
then I actually looked and I could see there was a texture in the plastic so then I went ah okay well this is
1:44:09
obviously a fault maybe with this backpack don't worry I've got a spare cuz I had another built one so I then
1:44:14
ripped off the spare one and started painting it and again fully painted this backpack very near the end of painting
1:44:20
that backpack I dropped it and then the spikes it's gone on the top the top Spike completely snapped off and I like
1:44:26
ah don't worry I'll try and fix it with green stuff that didn't work it's extraordinar tiny thing yeah so I tried
1:44:34
filling it and sculpting and res sculpting the very point of the and I couldn't get it to look right cuz obviously it looked it looked as though
1:44:40
it had been green stuffed on you know it didn't it was all it was a mess so then I went and bought a third Lazarus and
1:44:47
painted the backpack again fortunately that one came out right so third attempt it it worked out
1:44:55
but yeah it's amazing how uh yeah it I was a bit unlucky with the backpack but
1:45:00
got there in the end yeah absolutely just love the effort that like goes into it like commitment to a piece and it's
1:45:05
like you kind of look at it and when you see the final piece you're like yeah that's one model but actually the amount
1:45:11
of work and rework and correction like blowing neck if I spend more than a day on a Model um I'm bard of it don't say I
1:45:19
can tell have you considered giving up
1:45:26
oh I mean like man that uses AI says you should give [Laughter]
1:45:33
up these thumbnails are just writing themselves aren they yeah yeah oh oh
1:45:39
forget AB tested wear it Zed yes uh lovely so Chris Davis asked
1:45:45
you're a successful painter no doubt about it uh was there a miniature that you saw that inspired or motivated you
1:45:51
to enter the competition space if so what about it made you think I can do
1:45:56
that and better um so I I would say the ones that
1:46:02
really motivated me to enter the competition space were the old gold demons in the '90s and I remember and I
1:46:08
can't remember his name I think it was Neil Thompson but he this guy used to paint I think his own chapter called
1:46:14
Shadow Falcons I think it was and they were all custom conversions from old Space Marine kits and they all had like
1:46:22
a f theme and every year I used to look for his pieces and go oh it's another one and they always what made me want to
1:46:29
enter golden demon so that's what sort of made me want to enter doing it better is just a thing of you pushing yourself
1:46:36
to try and do it better but they they were the ones that inspired me to to really go for it you know those Custom
1:46:43
Custom conversions with custom paint jobs that made you think wow how did that person do that and yeah they were
1:46:50
my favorites you're right like for all the complaints of oh that you don't use this tool and don't thingy without that
1:46:56
we wouldn't Advance yeah yeah yeah absolutely right so yeah show me something I've never seen before but
1:47:02
don't use an advanced tool to do [Laughter] it yeah I want advancements but I don't
1:47:09
want fans Star Wars fans I want new Star Wars but I don't want anything to
1:47:15
change yeah I agree to it a point that's the thing yeah yeah he's like again
1:47:22
they're not wrong but also good point yeah yeah somehow Star Wars returned um
1:47:29
okay next one what cheese is best to slice with a Slayer
1:47:35
sword says Tim um a crumbly one I would say because yeahi oh there we go oh
1:47:41
that's one of my favorite cheeses oh grilled halumi making on a sandwich so I think that's what I would choose to
1:47:46
slice yeah there we go co have you ever sliced anything anything ever have you used the sword functionally as anything
1:47:53
just say no comment no as your lawyer married before you won on the
1:48:00
Slayer swords yes oh I was going to say that been good with the cake wouldn't it no no technically no I got married in
1:48:05
2010 so I did have a Slayer sword yeah no I no no sorry I didn't I'd won my first demon but no I didn't have a slay
1:48:12
sword otherwise that been great yeah yeah cutting
1:48:17
the no put TI with that knife let me just get my other one I know of people that have cut things them that people
1:48:23
that have cut melons and things they've had friends come around and then they've gone they've gone off to the kitchen and
1:48:29
come back and they've someone was trying to chop a watermelon with a Slayer sword and stuff and just a yes or no we don't
1:48:36
need well we want to know who tell us after do you know anyone who's had one sharpened no that's got someone's got to
1:48:43
do it cuz like you can you could sharpen you it's still I would say so wait for
1:48:49
the zombie apocalypse the house good idea yeah yeah yeah where do you keep them well these actually live next to my
1:48:57
desk at work I stack next to my ped cuz quite often I'd speak to people at work
1:49:02
or people would come around so it's like a conversational piece yeah um but they used to just sit at home like propped up
1:49:07
against a wall and every so often they just fall over yeah and and then cause all sorts of damage I can imagine people
1:49:14
coming it's like Neil we need to talk about the budget do we yeah yeah yeah was there any more we got yeah yeah yeah
1:49:20
yeah sorry go I'll shut off no no no it's fine I was going to say like if anybody comes up to you and you're like oh this could have been an email you
1:49:25
just find yourself [Laughter] reaching um yeah so well so the last one
1:49:33
so uh your exodite was incredible why do you think GW don't currently make them are they just too good so we'll we'll
1:49:40
take away the potential rumor that I uh yeah you know what I feel as OG du are
1:49:46
making everything from the good old days and like they want to make and it's just a matter of time I honestly think the
1:49:52
next 5 years we'll see exodites yeah there'll be a kill team or there'll be something but I the whole time I was
1:49:59
making that I mean the people in my painting group will tell you I was like a Cat on a Hot Tin Roof because I was
1:50:05
spending so much time sculpting the the whole piece and I was going if they release exodites before I get to put
1:50:11
this on the competition I would Beed and then there were reveal shows released them and they were
1:50:16
extraordin I know that when they release them they'll be 10 times better than what I've done cuz I've had to make it
1:50:22
out of bits they already make and they will make something bespoken amazing and
1:50:27
there were I think three major reveal shows before adepticon and each time one of those came up I sat there watching
1:50:33
going please please please don't please don't please oh you you went through like cuz they did quite a bit of Eldar
1:50:39
in the time between didn't they they did they did the Striking scorpions yeah um they did they did several Eldar things
1:50:45
and even to a stage where you know they do that silhouettes of stuff yeah I would put I say guys guys do we think this is an exod oh
1:50:53
yeah yeah the cruit ones as well where they did the cruit stuff like the arrows then there would people go exodites it's
1:50:59
definitely exodites I was going please don't be exodites please don't be exodites so of all the risks you've taken just before you'd even got
1:51:06
involved with any computer deciding your piece was well yeah this the thing I again I I weighed it up that before I
1:51:14
started cuz I had to wait for the Agron kit to be a released it wasn't obviously really straight after adepticon the last
1:51:19
one um so I was waiting for that to be released before I started anything on it
1:51:25
I didn't buy any of the kit other kits and then when it got released I literally weighed it up I went right are
1:51:31
GDB going to release exodites between now and the next Golden demon and I went
1:51:37
maybe so I literally then when I decided to do it I went right well I'm going all in let's hope they don't release be to
1:51:42
phone the studio and going look I don't need to know any information just are they coming in the next two years no
1:51:50
okay thank you the best thing for me would have been if released them just after no no done a preview At adep Con
1:51:56
of exodites because then everyone would have gone he did Lazarus and the lion
1:52:02
came out and now he's done exodites and they've come out and then there would have been loads of hobby rage yeah you
1:52:07
did didn't you you got people accusing you of cheating because you somehow
1:52:13
psychically knew the Dark Angels were coming I I somehow knew that line line
1:52:19
the line was being released in 40K even though I started pting Lazarus before
1:52:24
covid yeah so like three or four years before they released the line I somehow knew and I knew the timing and I got it
1:52:32
on the on the weekend of release of course he did BL bloody psychic golden demon winners they're the wst ones if
1:52:38
these painting cabals you know yeah we're like Illuminati yeah honestly it's
1:52:44
terrible yeah you just call up James workshop and he's yeah it's a secret handshake and
1:52:51
then he gives you all the information oh yeah I'm so disgusted I think we should
1:52:56
finish yes uh I'll ask a question then as I always do because uh I'm sort of a
1:53:02
member of the patreon in a way um just one strong piece of advice
1:53:08
for somebody who think about answering golden demon other than yes you should what would you say um and it's not me as
1:53:15
long as it's not your youve your um I would say just pick the one
1:53:22
the one more you love the most and paint it and then get the feedback start that feedback loop of yeah what what was what
1:53:29
what could have done better what what maybe I should have chosen different model you know all get start getting that feedback so you just need to pick
1:53:34
that one model you love because if you really like it you'll put it will show in the paint job if you're trying to
1:53:41
paint something that you don't really like but you think it's the in thing or it's the latest model I should paint that then you you're going down the
1:53:46
wrong road because you won't paint it very well and then it won't come out well so you might as well paint pick that one model you love paint that enter
1:53:53
it get feedback start again and then just keep doing that and then you'll get better cool brilliant that's can't argue
1:54:00
that for a piece of advice before we finishes y you'd like to finish on yeah uh my last thing is you can't spell
1:54:06
champion with an AI I might someone might need to go to A
1:54:13
and E for that b how many Subs can we lose this year we've been putting the effort in
1:54:19
since January we manag to be [ __ ] you now I'm definitely on definitely on that
1:54:26
note thank you for watching thank you to the patreons and if you are a patreon you're going to get some more anal he
1:54:32
talks us through some little uh bits more knowledge about painting and some tips and hobby for the hobby thank you
1:54:39
very much and thank you to everybody else for watching I'm Jeff oh we never do this do we at the end I'm just trying
1:54:45
something I'm Jeff too I am also Jeff nice and this is Jeff but with golden
1:54:51
demons and SWS thanks for watching bye bye
#Painting